[Daniel5691]

Hello ! Spotted this and thought I would post up over here FYI....

[Crumpler]

I saw that, do we know any back story?

Seems, obviously, sudden or abrupt.

[Daniel5691]

Hey Dave-O.
This makes no sense to me whatsoever. I order about 1/2 of my GB parts via Roger, and I can't make heads or tails of this. I know that there have been disagreements with 928 Motorsports on the forum with other vendors but his one blew me away. Just from a business POV this makes no sense. I almost don't want to know. Take care brother.

[worf]

Thread containing "evidence" has apparently been cleaned up very shortly afterward. A thread on motor mount height turned into bickering and then Greg's "announcement."

Already a few posts on it here: https://openroad.site/viewtopic.php?p=13033#p13033

[SeanR]

Sad to see for sure. Rog is where I get all my GB stuff from as I can never get a response from Greg on anything. Hell, I even had a customer wanting a stroker motor and we couldn’t get him to send my over any numbers. Even talked to him on the phone about it and he said he’d send it right away. Crickets. So we went another direction.

I like Greg a lot but as said, 2020 has made people overly touchy it seems.

[Charlie]

Thanks, 2020!

@SeanR beat me to it sort of.

[Crumpler]

Yikes, just read the other thread.
That’s well, unfortunate.

It was just easier to buy my GB stuff through Roger, especially for things like the super damper where I had to steal it from Dan.

I’m team Roger on this one. Hopefully they will make up.
I have not met or talked to Greg, but based on his posts I can see him being reactionary. And, well, no self esteem issues.

[captainOCD]

Granted I'm still fairly Jr in the 928 world, but in my experience Greg and Roger are both very nice guys. Roger always takes time to talk and make sure I have all the parts I forgot I needed for a job. I've called Greg on several occasions and he was similarly helpful. He even offered to mail me some special trans tools to borrow while I was working on my trans.

Hopefully those two can work things out.

[G8RB8]

I think Greg flies off the handle sometimes, but that's just me.
I have no idea what it's about though.

[jej3]

Stuff happens....

I've got $5 that this "falling out" if you want to call it that started with Roger selling Hans oil baffle design.

Roger is an excellent supplier and optically on my latest engine build, which was supposed to have GB three way oil cooler lines, etc.. it has been like a monkey trying to f*&k a football to get stuff from Greg through Roger.

None of which was Rogers fault but I think there was no clear "timeline" for fulfillment.

The Boutique makers (which I think Greg, Hans and others fall into) will likely struggle as demand goes into very real territory.

[Shifted]

   

[SeanR]

Stuff happens....

I've got $5 that this "falling out" if you want to call it that started with Roger selling Hans oil baffle design.

Might be, but doubt it. I suggested to Roger that carrying the Hans one was the better choice but he still carried Gregs. On two cars I had bad welds on the GB unit and had to yank everything down again because of it. Was on two different cars and when failed manufacturing costs me that many hours in repeat labor, I learned my lesson. Don't get me wrong, I love 99% of what GB makes and have installed uncounted numbers of items so I am a fan.

[Daniel5691]

I've got GB's fuel lines, clutch slave line, A/C lines, gaskets etc etc etc
Love the GB stuff, he's almost as awesome as Scheissco.

I hope they eventually kiss and make up.
Yeccchk. Just make up no kissin there boys keep yer hands to yerself.

Leave the kissin' for bee yoo tee full wimmin LOL

[jej3]

Stuff happens....

I've got $5 that this "falling out" if you want to call it that started with Roger selling Hans oil baffle design.

Might be, but doubt it. I suggested to Roger that carrying the Hans one was the better choice but he still carried Gregs. On two cars I had bad welds on the GB unit and had to yank everything down again because of it. Was on two different cars and when failed manufacturing costs me that many hours in repeat labor, I learned my lesson. Don't get me wrong, I love 99% of what GB makes and have installed uncounted numbers of items so I am a fan.

I just saw Greg get a bit twisted in these posts on a thread on RL...

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/1 ... st16518395

https://rennlist.com/forums/928-forum/1 ... st16519098

... may have read it wrong. But this was definitely the quote by GB that stood out to me.

"There's no gamble when you buy my stuff....every single piece works. Everything is guaranteed to work. End of story."

I genuinely hope none of this goes ugly but GB is likely going to see Roger has fostered more goodwill in this community than he ever could. I imagine others will create things which were somewhat unique to GB but it does not mean that GB invented them.

2020 should end already!

[SeanR]

Yea, he gets twisted to easily.

I had installed dozens of the GB baffles in the past with zero issues, then it was the last two. Welds ground off to close and too much heat used so it warped the facing plate. I had talked to Jake since he was the one doing the fab work and he knew what was going on and said he'd take care of it with GB. I never heard back on either one.

[jej3]

Yea, he gets twisted to easily.

I had installed dozens of the GB baffles in the past with zero issues, then it was the last two. Welds ground off to close and too much heat used so it warped the facing plate. I had talked to Jake since he was the one doing the fab work and he knew what was going on and said he'd take care of it with GB. I never heard back on either one.

I know exactly what you mean. Howard said my GB baffle broke when he was tearing down my engine for rebuild. Had to remove the baffle in pieces. I switched to Hans baffle on the re-build.

[3.2 Targa]

As a recovering 928 owner, I have never understood the drama generated between vendors in this small community.

I sold my 928 in 2004 to a great guy. I've stayed in contact with the 928 crew in DFW due to proximity to Sean and Rog and others. There was drama then (DEVEK vs. 928 Specialists) and drama now.

[martyp]

Well crap. I was planning on ordering a GB fuel line set this week from Roger. What are my options?

[worf]

Well crap. I was planning on ordering a GB fuel line set this week from Roger. What are my options?

Order directly from PM and call weekly thereafter.

[SeanR]

Well crap. I was planning on ordering a GB fuel line set this week from Roger. What are my options?

Or send your old ones to me and I'll do what I've been doing for my customers and make you new ones using the old connections.

[jej3]

Great to know @SeanR is a fuel line option :)

What's sad and I don't mean to pile on GB but I think there must have been a similar falling out between GB and 928Intl. I noticed a while back 928Intl seems to source fuel/clutch/oil lines from somewhere else, too. I could be wrong but that's what the info on their website indicates.

I feel for GB. But after trying to spend a SH!Tload of money on Oil Cooler Lines, a Damper which took a long time and other bits, I am glad for future options.

[GT6ixer]

That's a bummer to read this. Having met Greg and Mary in person for the first time last Sharktoberfest I can say they are really good folk. I love Roger. He's a great guy. Hopefully they can work things out.

[linderpat]

What's sad and I don't mean to pile on GB but I think there must have been a similar falling out between GB and 928Intl. I noticed a while back 928Intl seems to source fuel/clutch/oil lines from somewhere else, too. I could be wrong but that's what the info on their website indicates.

There was a huge dust up on rennlist last year over a blown motor by Mark of 928 Intl, and the rods used, and whether Greg was responsible. Greg blamed Mark. It was public and ugly, but they seemed to have simmered down, and are cordial to each other in the threads. Who knows what happens between them in the real world though. Greg could use a good PR guy.

[Crumpler]

As a recovering 928 owner, I have never understood the drama generated between vendors in this small community.

I sold my 928 in 2004 to a great guy. I've stayed in contact with the 928 crew in DFW due to proximity to Sean and Rog and others. There was drama then (DEVEK vs. 928 Specialists) and drama now.

You know, this may be a whole different thread but can somebody speak on DEVEK. Give me some history, they were defunct by the time I was an owner. They are spoken of a lot, seemingly revered as the high water mark of 928 days gone by. Always been curious about it.
Who were the principals and what transpired?

[SeanR]

I entered the 928 group right as Marc Thomas and Devek were in a downward spiral so don't know all the details. 3.2 is correct, there always seems to be drama in the 928 community and I admit to partaking in some of it. Too many alpha personalities that can never admit to being wrong and won't suck up any criticism. Devek did the same thing too many have done in the past, and seem to continue to do, which is having a great product and pre-sell a ton, but end up funneling money from one project to keep another afloat and it all end up catching up to them with pissed off customers not getting what they initially paid for. Whether it be taking $10,000.00 for a wheel project that never materializes because the money is spent to keep afloat, or a batch of headers, stroker engines, super chargers or radiators that fail. Taking monies to buy a ton of used parts, taking investor monies to run a business and never paying it back. Precisely why I've turned away "investors" in to my company. Once you start owing other people who expect a return on their investment, you no longer own it.

[worf]

IIRC: Devek was pretty gone by 2004. Or at least they’d stopped returning calls by then for sure.

That era’s drama was between 928 Specialists and 928s R Us. 2005/2006 I think.

Devek’s “issues” began surfacing in 2000. I may have a picture from IOC #1 in 2000 that is apropos.

Earliest friction between Mark Anderson and Greg Brown goes back to about the same time, if nor earlier, but wasn’t public and had nothing to do with broken motors.

I agree with Sean vis-a-vis investing/business and the 928 world is so small that it is very hard to make a business out of it. I’ve been asked why I don’t become a ‘real shop.’ It’s a long complicated answer that circles its way to: I couldn’t maintain the level of outcome quality as I do now, it would be a more-than-full-time job, and I would make, after expenses, minimum wage for me (hyperbole that, but not as much as you might think.)

[Crumpler]

Yes, I was around for the phone dial wheel fiasco.
That was a jaw dropper for me, and I wasn’t even an investor. I’m surprised the parties were as cordial as they were afterwards, granted I wasn’t privy to any of the private conversations, I’m guessing that had a different tone altogether.

Interesting about DEVEK. It’s strange to think they were likely doing aftermarket stuff when the 928 was still in production.

It’s funny, after a few beers, quitting the day job and starting a 928 shop always sounds really appealing Dave. Then the beer wears off;)

[worf]

Yes, I was around for the phone dial wheel fiasco... granted I wasn’t privy to any of the private conversations, I’m guessing that had a different tone altogether.

And you would be correct. Very correct. Very, very correct.

It’s funny, after a few beers, quitting the day job and starting a 928 shop always sounds really appealing Dave. Then the beer wears off;)

The economics of running a "real" shop - in any highly populated portion of the country - don't result in a profitable outcome unless you have at least 5 people working. It's either one guy or at least five.

At that point the scale required rules out a 928-only shop. Precision is able to make this work - for some values of "work" - because of where they are and because they didn't start out as a 928-only shop (and aren't today, even though 928 work is mostly what they do now.)

[SeanR]

OH yea, forgot about DR and Rogers fall out. We got banned from SITM because Roger brought some parts along to give to a customer who wanted to save some $$, and DR had a problem with it. DR had real issues with Rog starting 928sRus and took it personally instead of upping his game as a competitor. DR and I talked about it about 6 years ago at Frenzy and tried to smooth over that whole thing. There are other things there that won't ever come to the light of day. That was '07- '09. '09 was the last SITM we were allowed to.

[worf]

OH yea, forgot about DR and Rogers fall out. We got banned from SITM because Roger brought some parts along to give to a customer who wanted to save some $$, and DR had a problem with it. DR had real issues with Rog starting 928sRus and took it personally instead of upping his game as a competitor. DR and I talked about it about 6 years ago at Frenzy and tried to smooth over that whole thing. There are other things there that won't ever come to the light of day. That was '07- '09. '09 was the last SITM we were allowed to.

Not knocking your description.

Always remember that knowledge is a three-edged sword: your side, their side and the truth. Thus I prefer to refrain from cutting things with only one of the edges.

In other words, D.R's perspective is a bit different.

The whole truth is unavailable to folks that aren't telepaths who were in both heads at the same time as the shit went down.

I know one side of the Mark vs. Greg story. I know one side of the Devek vs. everybody story. At this I point prefer to simply note the occurrence of the friction without providing only "my side." Re-opening old wounds serves no purpose.

On my end, I deal with all three based upon my clients wishes or the origin of the referral. There's no upside for me or my clients in choosing sides.

Now, the wheel thing... I'm pretty familiar with the entire fucking sword because I was one of the "investors." But, what you all see is what the investors agreed to present as the outcome for a whole bunch of reasons.

[SeanR]

Oh I know that. Three sides. Yours, mine, the truth.

Heard both sides of the GB/MA ordeal, that one was really interesting as it seemed those two didn't even talk about stuff, until way after it was hashed out on rennlist. Just shook my head.

Some of us who are involved with the community end up hearing shit we didn't want to know to start with. I got phone calls from several different folks I'd not heard from in months the moment one of our vendors was removed from Rennlist recently. They got a phone call from someone involved and they just had to call another person and say what was going on. Some days I wonder if this place is a ladies bridge club with how fast news travels.

[worf]

Sean, Did you ever play the ‘telephone’ game as a child?

[SeanR]

Sean, Did you ever play the ‘telephone’ game as a child?

I can barely remember yesterday much less what I played as a kid, what's this one? I may have but just called it something else.

[Daniel5691]

The thing is, car guys always fight. That's what makes it fun. Ford vs Chevy, Yugo vs. Lamborghini, Catholics vs Jews, it makes it awesome.

What kills me about this though is when it is Porsche 928 vs Porsche 928.
That's just stupid ass behavior.

We should invoke the football rule : If there aren't enough righteous warriors on both sides of a car argument to make up 2 football teams, well then too damned bad; nobody is allowed to take the ball and wet their short pants and run home. Stand here and have it out and then make up.
There aren't enough of us misguided losers around to take sides. All the owners need all the vendors and all the vendors need all the owners.
928 guys are like the 3 stooges. We need each other. Especially Shemp.
And I still don't have the phone dials. LOL

[Daniel5691]

All except Dave. Nobody needs Dave Crumpler. hisssssss boooooooooooo

[worf]

Sean, Did you ever play the ‘telephone’ game as a child?

I can barely remember yesterday much less what I played as a kid, what's this one? I may have but just called it something else.

That's the game where all the kids line up, the teacher whispers a sentence in the ear of one kid. That kid then whispers the sentence into the ear of the kid next to them, etc. Once the whisper gets to the last kid in the line, that kid speaks the sentence out loud.

The sentence thus spoken has absolutely nothing to do with the sentence the teacher whispered into the ear of the first kid.

Same thing happens when someone hears something about someone else and, on the phone, tells their friend who tells their friend etc.

That's why it was called the telephone came. By the time the message gets to you it's completely diverged from reality.

[Crumpler]

Luckily I have added “mamby-Pamby”to my LifeLock filters and was informed quickly that Dan had invoked the word Crumpler.

Pfft. You should see me at work Dan. The ladies, age 55-85, think I’m the bomb.

[Landseer]

Grab a beer and join us for another episode of Drama, Divas and Drives!

[Landseer]

Disputes between legit businessmen are going to happen.
Hope recent ones get sorted out. It's harder if artists / inventors are involved.


Fair exchange of value, and open, honest communication are the things that matter to me. There is a lot of that here with the 928 guys usually.

Some shaky players have passed through the community. A wide range of bios. Ive been around long enough to generate a pretty lengthy list. Most have been blatant and easy to spot. Not all. We can help each other avoid, as we occasionally have blindspots as individuals.

Not sure why I weighed in. Am hoping we can build some good tech here though.

[linderpat]

Ha, I remember that SITM, which is when I first met Roger personally. That was in 08, and that is when the shit hit the fan with Rog and Dave. Todd was there too, with his turbo shark, and I got a nice ride in it. Todd wasn't invited to the SITM stuff, but he was at the hotel. I also remember a trip to LA in 2012, and the folks out there threw an impromptu GTG for me. Hung out at 928 Intl for a bit, then to a place for lunch and beers. Met Dr Bob, Mark A, Rob A, Jake and some other good folks. We had Greg B on the phone, and Mark was heading over to his shop. I was going to go over too, but didn't make it (big regret).

In an ideal world, everyone stays in the kumbya circle, but we know it ain't an ideal world.


edit: year change

[Landseer]

Cool that you got out west too.

SITM 08 was our first. Son and I brought a pair of just rescued, cobbled up red 928s. Met the texas crew. They had struggled the whole way with a sick shark. 928srus was just getting established. Terrifying ride down the parkway, following the Detroit guys, particularly AO.

I read nearly every RL tech post for 2 years straight trying to learn.

[linderpat]

Cool that you got out west too.

SITM 08 was our first. Son and I brought a pair of just rescued, cobbled up red 928s. Met the texas crew. They had struggled the whole way with a sick shark. 928srus was just getting established. Terrifying ride down the parkway, following the Detroit guys, particularly AO.

I read nearly every RL tech post for 2 years straight trying to learn.

Chris - I stand corrected - it was 08 when I was there, and that was Roger's last SITM. That's when I first met you as well. The fun run with AO leading the way was something. Shortest driver's meeting I ever attended - he said two words - "keep up". Jumped in the car and off we went. It was a blast!

[SeanR]

That was '09 (not that it really matters) as it was the last time Sterlings car was on the road.

We had one guy come with us who broke down in his OB not 20 miles from DFW and the carnage just continued the rest of the trip. One the way back it got worse and Jim pulled a dumb move and this happened.



Had a really great time though.

[linderpat]

I'll bet a beer it was 08 :D . Sterling was there in his car. In 09, I had moved to Montana and could no longer go. So maybe Sterling went in both 08 and 09, and you guys went for a couple of years too?

[SeanR]

I'll bet a beer it was 08 :D . Sterling was there in his car. In 09, I had moved to Montana and could no longer go. So maybe Sterling went in both 08 and 09, and you guys went for a couple of years too?

Hell, I can't remember. I'm just going by the dates on my FB photo album. I only made it to one SITM.

[Landseer]

I think the car was somebody else's, john?, anyhow I think it was maybe a bad maf.

My son was very young, we'd just gotten the 86 off the jack stands the day before. No seat time except the ride down from richmond. I looked up and saw him lined up with front bumper on the tailcone of AOs supercharged car rolling out towards the pkwy. Fear is all I felt.

I remember thanked roger for all the parts he'd shipped...he said it was better if we didn't discuss that at the event. Big tent in a field by grandfather mtn. It was 08. Lotta sharks, maybe100.

[worf]

I tor'd over to RL this evening(*).

GB's outdoing himself in terms of making new friends. It's hard/sad/embarassing to read. Two threads.

(*) Arriving at the RL homepage, unregistered, with a European IP address results in a very, very interesting dialog box vis-a-vis browser cookies. If you dig deep enough you might be astonished at how many different 'hands' load up your browser with tracking and ad shit.

[jej3]

I tor'd over to RL this evening(*).

GB's outdoing himself in terms of making new friends. It's hard/sad/embarassing to read. Two threads.

(*) Arriving at the RL homepage, unregistered, with a European IP address results in a very, very interesting dialog box vis-a-vis browser cookies. If you dig deep enough you might be astonished at how many different 'hands' load up your browser with tracking and ad shit.

GB is in full self-destruct mode. Calling people A$$hats and basically going after the rest of the 928 Ecosystem. You are right. It IS sad!

I had to come back and add to the above... he's gone scorched earth and if others are like me, all the respectable words of wisdom seem like they're trailing off in the rear view mirror with no positive road ahead.

[linderpat]

Yeah, WTF is going on with him? I've noticed a bad slide in attitude over the past year or so, but now it seems in full free fall. Damn, I hopes he just steps away for a bit.

[jej3]

Noticed the mods over there are trying to minimize the damage but it seems extreme to delete 1/3 or more of the posts in a thread.

He should step away for a bit.