Open Road

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/EHXImBf3mwo

All drivers and passengers survived, the RS probably had the roll bar and harnesses that saved their lives?
Too bad our cars come without them. I'm there in 3 weeks with a 3 point seat belt

Amazing how the cockpit car held up considering the car is half gone.

Dude tried to steal some kerb. Big no-no on the 'ring.

And he didn't get a pass signal.

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Sun Jul 06, 2025 7:32 pm I'm there in 3 weeks with a 3 point seat belt

Have you been there before?

Wow that looked like it was fatal all the way around.

BMW driver must have been blind to not see the GT3 coming up to pass.

worf wrote: ↑Sun Jul 06, 2025 7:35 pm Dude tried to steal some kerb. Big no-no on the 'ring.

And he didn't get a pass signal.

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Sun Jul 06, 2025 7:32 pm I'm there in 3 weeks with a 3 point seat belt

Have you been there before?

In that section, I wouldnt take the pass based on how bad the BMW was driven, but having said that, that place on the track is where you would typically let a car by like the BMW kinda did, and I only get a turn signal half the time maybe?

I don't have a lot of experience, maybe 300 laps since 2015? Ive done 5 or 6 Euro Deliveries.
I checked in late 2018 open ended and stayed 6 weeks driving every lap and every class I could find until I was only about 1 minute off the pace compared to the record runs

Definitely the most dangerous thing I've done in a car, most often I rent a very safe slow car to learn, but ive taken all my ED cars in TF at least a few laps with the Cayenne TGT being the most fun hahaha...

fpena944 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 8:14 am Wow that looked like it was fatal all the way around.

BMW driver must have been blind to not see the GT3 coming up to pass.

I don't know the extend of injuries but I thought they would be dead after seeing the crash..

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 11:34 am

worf wrote: ↑Sun Jul 06, 2025 7:35 pm Dude tried to steal some kerb. Big no-no on the 'ring.

And he didn't get a pass signal.

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Sun Jul 06, 2025 7:32 pm I'm there in 3 weeks with a 3 point seat belt

Have you been there before?

In that section, I wouldnt take the pass based on how bad the BMW was driven, but having said that, that place on the track is where you would typically let a car by like the BMW kinda did, and I only get a turn signal half the time maybe?

I don't have a lot of experience, maybe 300 laps since 2015? Ive done 5 or 6 Euro Deliveries.
I checked in late 2018 open ended and stayed 6 weeks driving every lap and every class I could find until I was only about 1 minute off the pace compared to the record runs

Definitely the most dangerous thing I've done in a car, most often I rent a very safe slow car to learn, but ive taken all my ED cars in TF at least a few laps with the Cayenne TGT being the most fun hahaha...

As I watch it again I got to thinking...

I know PCA DEs use different rules but in the case of passing it's usually the car that is passing who will need to come off the line to make the pass.

So in this case it could be argued that the BMW was maintaining their line and the GT3 should have gone wide.

But I know that the GT3 was attempting to pass on the straight and it was a short straight where the corner came up quickly so the BMW should have observed a pass being initiated and backed off a bit to avoid the collision.

If I were the GT3 I would have backed off knowing I didn't fully make the pass before the corner. It may have been his right to take that corner but I wouldn't have risked it - but then again when it comes to auto track events I tend to be pretty conservative. Now get me in a racing kart and it's a different story!

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 11:34 am I don't have a lot of experience, maybe 300 laps since 2015? Ive done 5 or 6 Euro Deliveries.
I checked in late 2018 open ended and stayed 6 weeks driving every lap and every class I could find ...

LoL. I can lop a zero off your lap total and you'll still be a bit ahead.

So, I'm not going to bother with what will obviously be teaching Grandma how to suck eggs.

Have fun and keep the shiny side up.

You should do Spa if you haven't already.

worf wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 2:13 pm

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 11:34 am I don't have a lot of experience, maybe 300 laps since 2015? Ive done 5 or 6 Euro Deliveries.
I checked in late 2018 open ended and stayed 6 weeks driving every lap and every class I could find ...

LoL. I can lop a zero off your lap total and you'll still be a bit ahead.

So, I'm not going to bother with what will obviously be teaching Grandma how to suck eggs.

Have fun and keep the shiny side up.

You should do Spa if you haven't already.

Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the infamous Trakcar Mancations.

fpena944 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 1:54 pm I know PCA DEs use different rules ...

On the 'ring you signal which way you are going to move off-line and then move off-line to allow faster cars behind you to pass on the racing line. It is rather confusing if you have muscle memory for PCA DE.

My - admittedly probably bias - view from my way-way-less laps than Trackcar and from hundreds of hours of watching in-car video is that amateur BMW drivers look in their mirrors far far less than other drivers. So, when you run up on a BWM expect to be held up. Sure there are always exceptions.

The other thing is that, off the F1 track, the rule is - no kerbs. There are like 3 or 4 that won't grab and toss you. If you watch the pros you'll see that they stay off the kerbs on the Northloop. Except for a handful.

So... my take is that the 911 driver was impatient. I didn't see BWM signal right, but it didn't hold to racing line. "Herr Senna" in the 911 saw a gap and took it, but got surprised when the BMW closed the gap just a bit. The surprise resulted in an instinctive reaction to jerk left which caused him to run up on the kerb which then tossed the 911 into the BMW. If the 911 hadn't jerked into the kerb, they might have swapped paint but would have likely not left the ground. IMO.

No prize for fastest time on a Tourist Day (or any other day for most of us.)

ranger22 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 2:23 pm Perhaps you’re unfamiliar with the infamous Trakcar Mancations.

Without a doubt.

worf wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 2:13 pm

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 11:34 am I don't have a lot of experience, maybe 300 laps since 2015? Ive done 5 or 6 Euro Deliveries.
I checked in late 2018 open ended and stayed 6 weeks driving every lap and every class I could find ...

LoL. I can lop a zero off your lap total and you'll still be a bit ahead.

So, I'm not going to bother with what will obviously be teaching Grandma how to suck eggs.

Have fun and keep the shiny side up.

You should do Spa if you haven't already.

:-)




Ive done many track in Europe :-)

Next week it starts again, bought a luggage car its in Holland so I fly to Amsterdam and drive it to the Ring instead of rental cars. Its a 1998 Mercedes Sclass S280 manual gearbox. Its a W140 that identifies as a W124 underneath LOL. No sunroof no electric seats no leather no Filter, no soft close, no nothing LOL.

Then from the Ring we go, Imola, Monza, Mugello, Silverstone, Donnington Park, Anglesey, back to Hockenheim, Ring, Bilsterberg and the Ring again.

Been doing trips like that since 2010, but my first ED was in 2015.

worf wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 2:35 pm

fpena944 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 07, 2025 1:54 pm I know PCA DEs use different rules ...

On the 'ring you signal which way you are going to move off-line and then move off-line to allow faster cars behind you to pass on the racing line. It is rather confusing if you have muscle memory for PCA DE.

My - admittedly probably bias - view from my way-way-less laps than Trackcar and from hundreds of hours of watching in-car video is that amateur BMW drivers look in their mirrors far far less than other drivers. So, when you run up on a BWM expect to be held up. Sure there are always exceptions.

The other thing is that, off the F1 track, the rule is - no kerbs. There are like 3 or 4 that won't grab and toss you. If you watch the pros you'll see that they stay off the kerbs on the Northloop. Except for a handful.

So... my take is that the 911 driver was impatient. I didn't see BWM signal right, but it didn't hold to racing line. "Herr Senna" in the 911 saw a gap and took it, but got surprised when the BMW closed the gap just a bit. The surprise resulted in an instinctive reaction to jerk left which caused him to run up on the kerb which then tossed the 911 into the BMW. If the 911 hadn't jerked into the kerb, they might have swapped paint but would have likely not left the ground. IMO.

No prize for fastest time on a Tourist Day (or any other day for most of us.)

I agree more with Misha.

On a tourist day (which is most of the days and most of the videos...) there are only two requirements to be on the Ring. You must have $20, and you must have a vehicle that moves. Expectations from PCA events are that the cars all have tech inspections, the drivers are vetted by run group for safety and ability, and that everyone is sober. This is NOT the case on tourist days. While as Misha said, traffic law dictates that the Ring is a toll road with standard road rules: " stay right except to pass" - do you want to have carved on your tombstone: "...but I had the right of way!"?

How you drive depends on a lot of things. Two big factors are "how rich are you?" and "how much life experience do you have (age)?". If you are 25 years old and inherited a billion-dollar trust fund when you were 18, you are both immortal and invulnerable (due to age and experience), and do not give a shit if you wreck your car (because you can just buy another one). Since I am old and not rich, I pass very carefully at the Ring. In particular, if someone signals as you are approaching, the most important message I get from that is "I see you". If they already have a signal on when they come into sight, they probably just forgot and left it on. If they never signal, it probably means they do not know you are there, they plan to use the whole track, and/or that they are inexperienced and dangerous.

Misha indicated that by law, either the BMW driver was at fault, or it was shared responsibility. While I would argue that it is shared responsibility, I think that the GT3 driver had more ability to prevent the crash. The BMW driver clearly did not see the GT3 (or would not have cut him off). The GT3 driver had NO indication that he had been seen, so as an experienced Ring driver, he should have expected the BMW to use the whole track (IMHO).

If you have done track days where you had a formula car in your run group, you know how aware you must be to share the track with a car going twice your speed that is only two feet high. In the longest video I saw, it looked like the GT3 was only in the BMW's mirror for 10-15 seconds, and closed very quickly. If the BMW driver's attention was all forward, trying to figure out where the track went around the next curve, it would be easy (...but a mistake) to not check you mirrors for that long.

Wear your safety gear.
Keep your head on a swivel.
Don't take it out on the track if you can't afford to ball it up.

It appears that we are all (including Misha) in agreement that the BWM driver had his head up his ass.

^^^ Hahaha, yes..

Its TF I'll be there again soon in a car I can barely afford.
We will try to have fun in a very defensive way, and maybe I will do some balls to the wall laps in a 200-300Hp car with cage and all the safety stuff that I CAN afford to ball up.

I never broke a bone, I'm no gambler and take calculated risks, been doing track days over twenty years and only spun once or twice when I was got started..
Raced two years, crashed twice by others LOL

Having said that, if I'm going to die let it be into a guardrail..

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Thu Jul 10, 2025 9:28 am ^^^ Hahaha, yes..

Its TF I'll be there again soon in a car I can barely afford.
We will try to have fun in a very defensive way, and maybe I will do some balls to the wall laps in a 200-300Hp car with cage and all the safety stuff that I CAN afford to ball up.

I never broke a bone, I'm no gambler and take calculated risks, been doing track days over twenty years and only spun once or twice when I was got started..
Raced two years, crashed twice by others LOL

Having said that, if I'm going to die let it be into a guardrail..

What I bolded above is the scariest part.

You can do everything right but when someone else has their head up their a$$ you still end up paying the consequences.

I was at the track once when a BMW M5 driver came in too hot into a corner and due to the weight couldn't make the turn. A Porsche was driving by and they collided. No fault of the Porsche driver but still has to live with the consequences.

The primary reason I also won't ride a motorcycle outside of a closed course!

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Thu Jul 10, 2025 9:28 am We will try to have fun in a very defensive way, and maybe I will do some balls to the wall laps in a 200-300Hp car with cage and all the safety stuff that I CAN afford to ball up.

This -^ is the way.

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Thu Jul 10, 2025 9:28 am ...maybe I will do some balls to the wall laps in a 200-300Hp car with cage and all the safety stuff that I CAN afford to ball up.

Last few trips to the Ring, I have been renting caged race cars from Jaco's Paddock. Full cage with door bars, 6-point, stripped interior low power BMW's. For me, they are in the sweet spot for something to push a little harder. 20 years ago I started out with Ron Simons at RSR renting street cars, and still recommend that as a nice experience for first time (and often one-time) visitors. I think that the BMW's are the Ring version of Spec Box/ Spec Miata momentum cars that teach you a lot more about driving. Do you have another recommendation for renting a low powered caged car?

TRAKCAR wrote: ↑Thu Jul 10, 2025 9:28 am ... if I'm going to die let it be into a guardrail..

IF you are going to die?

...I'm afraid I have some bad news for you....



P.S. ...that reminded me of a quote from Elon that I liked - "I would like to be able to die on Mars. Just not on impact..."

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