[worf]

I plan on making brackets to hold the 'wishbone' carrier, ditching everything else. Unfortunately, there are not many mounting points inside the fender, using existing bolt holes.

Take the two outer sections of the lifter bar, chop-off the ends that protrude into the engine bay, weld a plate to the shortened sections that’s the same shape as the plastic bearing, and then use the holes for that bearing in the chassis to bolt the welded section in place.

Measuring thrice required to make sure the first cut doesn’t cut too much.

Also, best remove the front cover for this. Much easer to get to that stuff for fettling.

[worf]

Here:

[Crumpler]

Appreciate the feedback you guys.
Thanks for that link to pelican too.

I researched Missouri headlight regulations, like everything else here pretty basic: you need two. ;)
No height specifications, I could use the fog light space as a back up. I’m interested in seeing this dropped look with the hood back on.

[Stepson]

Regarding the Tahoe lights installed as foglights to which Maddog referred:

That car was located in the boonies of Texas and the owner was having a problem getting his 5 speed S4 back on the road. I was part of a group of guys that went to his location to try to help. The owner had 3 different local shops (none familiar with 928s) keep the car for 6 months each trying to fix the issues that prevented the car from running. Our little help group included Roger Tyson, Jim Mayzurk, Doc Mirror, Ernest Swink, and myself. There may have been someone else there, but I have CRS and don't recall.

Anyway, within 2 hours of arriving, we had found 3 different issues that were keeping the car from running. The first issue was the crank position sensor was not sensoring. The second issue was the fuel pump was not pumping. And the third issue was that the ignition switch was just FUBAR.

Since we were in the boonies and had no parts with us to replace bad parts, we decided to temporize the corrective issues where necessary to show the owner that the car would run.

We started the car, and it ran, but not well. We let it run for a few minutes and turned it off.

After some additional questioning of the owner, we found out that he had some kind of issue with the Timing Belt/Water pump and had replaced it two and a half years before, and had driven the car in that state for a year before sending it to the first mechanic, the second and then the third mechanic.

We then did a compression test and found all the cylinders had about 30 lbs of pressure except for one cylinder, which did have what would be considered normal cylinder pressure.

We told the owner that he had bent valves in 7 of 8 cylinders and the heads would need work.

We left him with the knowledge of what needed to happen, but didn't hear back from him.

I called him a couple of years later and found out he had divorced his wife and moved out of state. He had removed the engine from the car, but never got further than that. Both the car and the engine were in a shed on the property. As far as I know, the car and the engine are still there.

[Crumpler]

I fabricated some brackets to utilize the factory wishbone lamp holder. I secured from inside and front. Once the covers were jammed on the look was okay but not great. I left the front of the oval open to increase air flow to the coolers under each fender.
The lamp and covers still have a tiny amount of give when you push on them, just from the physics of base being secured put not the tops. I don’t want any give, I’ve had things come loose, even a weld, at the track. So this feels like a non-starter for me.
I think someone else could go a better job with fiberglass molds maybe.
I’m looking at 4x6 H4 headlights for the fog light location next.

[Crumpler]

After rumination, I have 4x6 H4 headlights ordered.
These will place at the fog light location.
I found a state inspector who said it’s a grey area but will pass.

The plan is to lid the factory headlight opening, with an open lip to direct air to coolers and brakes.

[Crumpler]

[worf]

It looks like it will do what I think you think you want it to do.

But, air never does what you think it will do unless your name is Adrian Newey or Kelly Johnson.

Be that as it may… are you planning on, behind the plate, a funnel-like device to a hose directly to wherever you want the airflow?

[grepin]

Could you fit smaller round lights that allows air bypass?

[Crumpler]

Ahhh Dave.
Are you still assuming that I plan these things out to the point of knowing where the air goes?

No sir.
We are in the, air is good, and it looks mean, situation.
Imagine you are in your Audi R8, with your integrated track day software package, and this thing comes up behind you ;)
Grepin, I need an update, where are you at with yours?

[worf]

Imagine you are in your Audi R8, with your integrated track day software package, and this thing comes up behind you ;)

It needs to be yellow or orange and not “stealth black.”

[grepin]

Unfortunately I dont have anything exciting to report. My tuning expertise has not progressed. I recently bought a new house so its keeping me very busy. However it has a bigger shed/garage which I will be able to fit a hoist. Next step is engine out and head gaskets and wherever that leads to. All the talk on the other forum about manual swaps and supercharger kits is interesting maybe something like that for the future. Then the shark tuner with laptop tunability showed up which is also interesting but not for my control units. In reality I am actually coming over to America next year for 6 months for a work course. Its Florida but I might be able to set my eye on some of these developments. If ever there was a time to get anything bulky it would be then. Only as I could organise shipment myself. Maybe via a container. So basically not much until maybe Oct next year when I will get serious about pulling the motor and return to Australia.

[Crumpler]

Unfortunately I dont have anything exciting to report. My tuning expertise has not progressed. I recently bought a new house so its keeping me very busy. However it has a bigger shed/garage which I will be able to fit a hoist. Next step is engine out and head gaskets and wherever that leads to. All the talk on the other forum about manual swaps and supercharger kits is interesting maybe something like that for the future. Then the shark tuner with laptop tunability showed up which is also interesting but not for my control units. In reality I am actually coming over to America next year for 6 months for a work course. Its Florida but I might be able to set my eye on some of these developments. If ever there was a time to get anything bulky it would be then. Only as I could organise shipment myself. Maybe via a container. So basically not much until maybe Oct next year when I will get serious about pulling the motor and return to Australia.

Well it’s the journey, not the destination, as they say.
Plenty of time.
I have not heard much about the supercharger kit on the other forum since the initial posting, now that you mention it.
Honestly, I would look at a Raptor unit, based in Australia right? They were what 928 Motorsports used, small and powerful. If you end up going in that direction.
Hopefully you enjoy your time in the States.

[Crumpler]

Final top end pic.
Actually, there’s a intercooler coming for the second side but you get the idea.
Crank breather reroute due to space, a bit gaudy but functional.

[Crumpler]

Same boost at wot as previous.
Put it back on the surgery table.
One major, two minor boost leaks.


The major starts at six pounds of boost and it’s the junction of the TB and the central pipe.
That’s going to require a tear down.
Probably some type structural change is needed , the S3 top end is just insanely bad for boost.

[worf]

Probably some type structural change is needed , the S3 top end is just insanely bad for boost.

Too many pieces, places, hoses, clamps for high boost.

It is what it is with the organ pipes.

[Crumpler]

85-86 had built in factory boost limiters.
At no extra charge to consumers.

[worf]

There is a solution. Get screwed:

[Crumpler]

When can you ship?
:)

[worf]

When can you ship?

I’ll talk to Hans.

[Crumpler]

The final solution (without nazi references) was a 3.5 ID coupler with my old friend JB Weld. This secures TB to the intake without any junctions. This will require pulling entire pipe organ to work on anything but at this point, whatever.
The ICV is an S4 version that was relocated.


Bench testing. It held about 20 psi, then the side cap blew off and almost broke the window.
The engineers at Hart Motorsports are always field testing our products.

[Crumpler]

More revisions.
Top end now holds pressure well.
Close to taking it out again for road test.

[Crumpler]

This is what the stock headlight delete turned into.

[hernanca]

Love the uniqueness! And a certain resemblance...


Close up, the covers look a little... crumpled?

Curious on whether the openings are ramming air in at speed or sucking it out? Hard to tell from the aero/pressure diagram. Maybe tape some bright string and see what it does?

[Crumpler]

Yes!
The eye job makes it less shark like, more droid like.

Yeah, the metal is too thin I agree, looks pinched up.
That’s on the list, with premium option of having a body shop shape more of a raised oval at entrance and maybe pull a fiberglass mold off it.
That it a cool S3 diagram, I don’t think I have seen that before.

[worf]

Lol. The Battle-‘28.

And yes, @hernanca is correct you’ll need to do the string thing and a front mounted camera lookin’ at it to see if the eye scoops are working fur’ya or again’ya.

Could go either way. And also depends upon speed.

Making the eye scoops look up rather than at the license plate might result in a better outcome.

[XR4Tim]

Yes!
The eye job makes it less shark like, more droid like.

I thought they looked kind of like nostrils.

[hernanca]

That it a cool S3 diagram, I don’t think I have seen that before.

That is why I posted it - just in case you had not seen it!

didn't someone fit GM truck headlights in the place of the fog lights once?

some interesting ideas here:

https://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche ... ource.html

(Edit: Had time to re-read the thread and saw where @maddog2020 already mentioned the GMC headlights - same as what I am referring to, below!)

PS If you are worried about the headlights at inspection, it might be worth exploring aftermarket quad (four) headlight kits for 1989-1991 (Edit: looks like up through 1999 too) Chevy Suburban/Pickups and compatible vehicles (vs. their bumper/parking lights which could also be used if you already had headlights). From what I have seen/read, they fill completely the S3 fog/parking light slot. That is assuming you want to fill up that area vs. use for added air flow. This is what Darklands used for Bertha:

[Crumpler]

Wow. Bertha is glorious.
I like the side mirrors too.
I will report back in.

[hernanca]

The vocal consensus on the Bertha side mirrors was most did not like them. I was probably the exception since they look like antennaes to me and that tickles my Sci-Fi fancy!

I do like a lot of things about Bertha, but I don't think she would survive a track very well!

[Crumpler]

The antennas on Bertha give me a period Italian feel.

I have a weird dynamic with mine, obviously I don’t mind chopping, but there is a need to not be sneered at while tracking. ;$

It amazing to me how many of the new cars show up car show detailed.

I also get concerns from the crowd when there’s oil.
She oozes from a cam plug, drop here and there but my god these guy’s loose their minds. I’m like, yeah that’s ok, to looks of disbelief.
I told the guy next to me (we are friends) that it was from his 997.2, he went pale lol.

[lupo.sk]

The antennas on Bertha give me a period Italian feel.

I have a weird dynamic with mine, obviously I don’t mind chopping, but there is a need to not be sneered at while tracking. ;$

It amazing to me how many of the new cars show up car show detailed.

I also get concerns from the crowd when there’s oil.
She oozes from a cam plug, drop here and there but my god these guy’s loose their minds. I’m like, yeah that’s ok, to looks of disbelief.
I told the guy next to me (we are friends) that it was from his 997.2, he went pale lol.

It’s not dripping oil, it’s sweating power ;-)

[Crumpler]

The antennas on Bertha give me a period Italian feel.

I have a weird dynamic with mine, obviously I don’t mind chopping, but there is a need to not be sneered at while tracking. ;$

It amazing to me how many of the new cars show up car show detailed.

I also get concerns from the crowd when there’s oil.
She oozes from a cam plug, drop here and there but my god these guy’s loose their minds. I’m like, yeah that’s ok, to looks of disbelief.
I told the guy next to me (we are friends) that it was from his 997.2, he went pale lol.

It’s not dripping oil, it’s sweating power ;-)

That is gold :)

[worf]

It amazing to me how many of the new cars show up car show detailed.

I was always amazed at how many would show up with a full semi with two-race-car trailer and prep crew for a DE.

Lime Rock of course.

I also get concerns from the crowd when there’s oil.
She oozes from a cam plug, drop here and there but my god these guy’s loose their minds. I’m like, yeah that’s ok, to looks of disbelief.

Just wait. When the banker in his new $325k 992 GT3RS turns off TC and ass-ends it into Armco behind you, he will claim that he went off on a drop of your oil.

[lupo.sk]

It amazing to me how many of the new cars show up car show detailed.

I was always amazed at how many would show up with a full semi with two-race-car trailer and prep crew for a DE.

Lime Rock of course.

I also get concerns from the crowd when there’s oil.
She oozes from a cam plug, drop here and there but my god these guy’s loose their minds. I’m like, yeah that’s ok, to looks of disbelief.

Just wait. When the banker in his new $325k 992 GT3RS turns off TC and ass-ends it into Armco behind you, he will claim that he went off on a drop of your oil.

To be fair, most of those types can get off on waaay less than a drop of oil

[worf]

To be fair, most of those types can get off on waaay less than a drop of oil

Exect-o-mundo.

The problem is that they will look for anyone other than themselves to blame.

Long time ago, I was dogging a dude at Mosport. I’d lapped him once in my not-a-911 and when I approached from the rear again he was obviously intent on not being lapped twice in his 911 by a not-a-911. After half-a-lap, he went off track in 5a/5b.

After, I meandered up to him “Hey, <insert first name of “retired CFO of a big public company”> what happened there?

Answer: “I thought PSM was holding me back and I turned it off to try to pull away from you.”

[hernanca]

The antennas on Bertha give me a period Italian feel.

There is at least a Ferrari model with something like that, so yeah, I can see that!

I have a weird dynamic with mine, obviously I don’t mind chopping, but there is a need to not be sneered at while tracking. ;$

I suspect different folks will sneer at different things. Just bringing a 928 will bring some sneers. Modifying it will bring other sneers. I believe the sneers stop when the respect begins. Performance, competitiveness, consistency, effort, hard work, working with what you have - all of these bring respect. IIRC, several now respected cars were sneered at when they first showed up to a race. The Chaparral 2J "sucker" car comes to mind where the competition eventually rallied to successfully ban it!

But I do get not wanting to be ostracized from your fellow racers. Though I would argue that the ones sneering the most may not be ones you want to hang out with anyway....

I also get concerns from the crowd when there’s oil.
She oozes from a cam plug, drop here and there but my god these guy’s loose their minds. I’m like, yeah that’s ok, to looks of disbelief.
I told the guy next to me (we are friends) that it was from his 997.2, he went pale lol.

Lol. Well, if it comes from a potential safety concern, I can understand that. Other than that, they don't know their car history. Probably most if not all cars leaked oil as the norm. It was just how it was, until manufacturers were required to address and stop those leaks.

Just wait. When the banker in his new $325k 992 GT3RS turns off TC and ass-ends it into Armco behind you, he will claim that he went off on a drop of your oil.

Exactly! Would not matter if it was really your fault or not. They can point to "evidence". The way the world sometimes works, unfortunately.

Keep doing what you are doing, man! 928 racers always get a lot of respect from me because you guys are doing way more than I could ever do with my 928!

[Crumpler]

Ok.
Just another day at Hart Motorsports. Christ.

Field test today.
Same boost levels as single SC setup.

looking at the logs, I can say there is boost earlier in the rpm range, but wot numbers are the same.

Soooooo.
Thoughts?
We now have identical units in parallel going into the same displacement engine, producing 5-7 pounds of boost. I did not expect double but did not expect the same?
I went down what twin SC rabbit holes exist in the internet. There’s a source that says parallel configuration just doubles air flow at same boost levels.
The physics are elusive to me.
To increase boost they need to be in serial configuration.
Others disagree.
Twice the air flow would have to increase the HP correct? Butt dyno agrees, but it always feels like a monster after not having driven it for months.

I’m going to boost test every thing from the merge back to the blowers, and look for belt slip on the second unit.

[XR4Tim]

Where is your boost measurement coming from? At the outlet of each compressor or at the intake manifold?

[Crumpler]

Boost measures from intake. MAP sensor at merge pipe (speed density no maf).
Boost gauge in cockpit and numbers the same as what ECU is seeing.

Found my guru Bob Beam at House of Boost, he would expect two units to find the same restriction and find more boost, so obviously the system has a problem. He asked if our valve springs are strong enough. I assume they are.

Some kind souls in a Modified Mustang Forum responded last night. Said I gotta revisit BOV functionality.

I’m going to delete the BOV’s today with straight pipe and see what happens. They close correctly but maybe are leaking at boost. No idea.

[hernanca]

I’m going to delete the BOV’s today with straight pipe and see what happens. They close correctly but maybe are leaking at boost. No idea.

I am not a Boostard, but that sounds like a bad idea! Isn't the BOV sort of a safety? Maybe it just needs a higher setting (if they can be adjusted), or a different one with a higher boost tolerance?

[Crumpler]

Thank you for trying to save me from myself ;)

It can be a full time job over here.

BOV can be a safe guard but mostly to avoid blower wear because of compressor surge.
Boost limiter valves are the real safety devices.
Which I might need if the experiment works. :(

Aren’t you guys at least glad I’m here for entertainment value. This is great.

[hernanca]

Thank you for trying to save me from myself ;)

It can be a full time job over here.

We gotta watch out for each other!

BOV can be a safe guard but mostly to avoid blower wear because of compressor surge.
Boost limiter valves are the real safety devices.
Which I might need if the experiment works. :(

Never heard of those - interesting. (I always wanted to supercharge but a stroker became available that I could not pass up, so that's where I went!)

Same boost levels as single SC setup.

There’s a source that says parallel configuration just doubles air flow at same boost levels.
The physics are elusive to me.

I believe worf has a better grasp of the physics than I (I had to take it 2x), but that makes sense to me.

Twice the air flow would have to increase the HP correct?

I would say, yes, if there is/are no bottleneck(s) preventing the motor from accessing all that airflow. Bottlenecks I can think of: throttle body, valve size, & valve/cam timing.

[Crumpler]

Ok.
Looks like I have been chasing my tail since I had to keep decreasing pulley size on the first unit install.
The Procharger BOV fails miserably on bench testing.
I will see if there is a way to adjust tension but not at all sure.

[worf]

The Procharger BOV fails miserably on bench testing.

That’ll do it.

Random thoughts:

We know - thanks to Tuomo - that you *can* push 1000 horses worth of air through the stock-ish (s4) air path.

Now, Mr. T had his air guide opened up a bit and maybe some mild head work, but in general the intake path wasn’t hugely different from OE.

Boost measurement is also a measurement of restriction as you measure closer and closer to the source of boost.

Thus, counterintuitively when you make the downstream path more efficient you may “see” less boost but you’ll be producing more torque.

Measuring pressure and temperature at several places might provide a picture of intake path efficiency. It would also allow one to calculate the speed of mass flow in the intake path. If below 0.5 Mach then one can reasonably conceptualize the fluid in the intake path as incompressible. If above 0.5 Mach then shit gets weirder and weirder because you must model it as a compressible fluid.

Hmmm…. seems like one could - where “one” is an element of a class with fabrication skills - set up one of the SCs on a bench, turn it with an electric motor, instrument the crap out of it, and then add intake components bit by bit testing at each step.

[Crumpler]

Thank you Worf, and Hernanca.

The second BOV did the same thing on the bench.
Autopsy of one shows no adjustment cycle. Maybe Procharger can provide me with a different spring.
At 450.00 per, you could say it’s not a big ask right;)

[worf]

Thats a ridiculous(ly weak) looking spring.

[XR4Tim]

If you're seeing 5-7 psi at the intake, that's total boost, so each supercharger is supplying half of that, and total output would be the same as one supercharger at 5-7 psi. I think you're looking for 10+ psi, and the bleeding blow off valves may be preventing that.

[lupo.sk]

Get a set of APR R1s

[Crumpler]

And it gets better.

Sooooooo.
Manufacturers specs require the signal line to see the same pressure as the valve sees to keep it shut.
IE., on bench 10 pounds to BOV — and ten pounds of pressure to the signal line (via my power bleeder) the valve does not leak.
Which would kill my current break through theory, except…. I happened to run the signal line from the throttle body location that is on the manifold side of the plate, but does co mingle with the throttle bypass. Also looks like undersized line based on BOV specs.
So then we are back to, yes BOV works, but was in fact not working. Which gutted boost production from leaking due to my install. More to come I’m sure.