[worf]

I can't find head measurement tolerances for MY 85 heads in the WS Manual. I did find them for the 16V at 15-19. Can anyone direct me where in the WS Manual or where to measure and what the measurements should be?

'85-'89 Tech Spec Book page 40.

WSM 15-112j

[WyattsRide]

I can't find head measurement tolerances for MY 85 heads in the WS Manual. I did find them for the 16V at 15-19. Can anyone direct me where in the WS Manual or where to measure and what the measurements should be?

'85-'89 Tech Spec Book page 40.

WSM 15-112j

Thanks Dave!

[WyattsRide]

To me, it was very challenging to get, I feel, an accurate measurement of the heads. The lug at the top and the mating surface directly below that lug are not in the same plane. So the caliper jaws couldn't touch both surfaces and be plumb.

This was the best I could think of. There's probably a better way.
I turned the heads on their side, clamped my speed square to the head, to extend the mating surface. Zeroed out the thickness of the square and measured as best I could.



LEFT HEAD


RIGHT HEAD


Based on these measurements, it doesn't look to me that these heads were decked. Also, there are no "N" identification engraved into either heads as noted from the WS manual page . I wonder if that procedure is ever really done by whoever would do the decking?

[worf]

To me, it was very challenging to get, I feel, an accurate measurement of the heads. The lug at the top and the mating surface directly below that lug are not in the same plane. So the caliper jaws couldn't touch both surfaces and be plumb.

You should do the complete measurement, including set-up and tear-down, three times and take the average.

Also, there are no "N" identification engraved into either heads as noted from the WS manual page . I wonder if that procedure is ever really done by whoever would do the decking?

I don’t think so. But, I’ll check when I pick up a set of heads from “my guy” this week.

Based on these measurements, it doesn't look to me that these heads were decked.

Decking is usually a couple thousandths. (As little as possible.) 0.003” is 0.0762 mm. That’s going to be well within your measurement error. More than that is, I suspect, an indication that the heads were poorly straightened after or heated during welding and the resulting warp required more decking.

But, I’ll try to remember to check with my head guy.

[WyattsRide]

Turned the engine on it's side and emptied the rest of the oil and slug from the bottom of the pan. the slug didn't seem to bad like lumps or any metallic pieces. Saved the slug for analysis.

I screwed up while removing the oil pan. I removed the bolts without recognizing that there are different sizes. SHIT! Now I have to figure out where these go back!
(24) long bolts (6) shorter bolts



Pan cleaned


What I'm I to look for as far wear or damage here? What is recommended to be replaced or cleaned, since I'm here with easy access?

[tungsten]

I took ok notes when pulling the pan. There were 5 short bolts on my ‘85 oil pan. They all went in the holes where the casting dips in to be a little thinner than the adjacent spots.

I guess there may have been a sixth, but I left the pass-front bolt wedged between the flange and the oil reservoir and didn’t get calipers on it. If you have six short bolts, my money is on that one.

I’d post a photo of the notebook sketch, but it’s more grease than paper and pencil right now.

[WyattsRide]

I took ok notes when pulling the pan. There were 5 short bolts on my ‘85 oil pan. They all went in the holes where the casting dips in to be a little thinner than the adjacent spots.

I guess there may have been a sixth, but I left the pass-front bolt wedged between the flange and the oil reservoir and didn’t get calipers on it. If you have six short bolts, my money is on that one.

I’d post a photo of the notebook sketch, but it’s more grease than paper and pencil right now.

Thanks for this. I suspected that at least some of the short ones had to be from the smaller gap area. These ones were harder to completely remove because of the space.

[worf]

I took ok notes when pulling the pan. There were 5 short bolts on my ‘85 oil pan. They all went in the holes where the casting dips in to be a little thinner than the adjacent spots.

This -^ is the conventional wisdom.

I guess there may have been a sixth, but I left the pass-front bolt wedged between the flange and the oil reservoir and didn’t get calipers on it. If you have six short bolts, my money is on that one.

The front left corner of the oil pan is another good place for short bolts.

[The Fat Man]

Rick, let me spend your money for you:
With the engine on a stand and upside down, order 4 new connecting rod nuts and check the bearings in #2 and #6 connecting rods.
Or, be dumb like me, and order 16 connecting rod nuts and a set of Glyco rod bearings.
No better time than now.

[WyattsRide]

Rick, let me spend your money for you:
With the engine on a stand and upside down, order 4 new connecting rod nuts and check the bearings in #2 and #6 connecting rods.
Or, be dumb like me, and order 16 connecting rod nuts and a set of Glyco rod bearings.
No better time than now.

Why must new nuts be used after checking the bearings? Why can't they just be reused?

[worf]

Why must new nuts be used after checking the bearings? Why can't they just be reused?

WSM specifies single use.

[tungsten]

Why can't they just be reused?

The nuts have a texture on the flange that deforms under torque to mechanically lock them down. Only works once.

[linderpat]

Rick, let me spend your money for you:
With the engine on a stand and upside down, order 4 new connecting rod nuts and check the bearings in #2 and #6 connecting rods.
Or, be dumb like me, and order 16 connecting rod nuts and a set of Glyco rod bearings.
No better time than now.

pardon my ignorance (which thrives in abundance), but what is he looking for by doing this? What is he expecting to find?

[The Fat Man]

Hi Ed!

#2 and #6 connecting rod bearings are usually the most likely to show wear. It is relatively common to pull the rod caps for a look-see at the bearings when you have the oil pan off.
Rick is looking for the condition of the bearing shell in the cap. He is looking for excessive wear. He should see relatively even wear across the face of the bearing, with even color. More or less.
Gouges, scratches, and wear through of the first layer are a bad thing.
If you are feeling super motivated, measure rod bearing clearance with a piece of PlastiGauge. You can get it cheap at any auto parts store. Easy to use.

This wear is dependent upon mileage of the engine and care in oil changes.
I don't remember how many miles Rick's 'Dorian Gray' 1985 928 has.

If #2 and #6 look good, lube the bearing face, reinstall the rod cap, torque down 4 new nuts, and carry on.
If they look bad, order a set of bearings and all new nuts. Better to catch it now than it become an issue later.
From what I understand, the M28.** crankshaft is a very stout piece. Unless you are running sand in your oil, the rod journals should be fine.

Bottom line, it is a quick inspection that will give a clue to the health of the rod bearings.


Here are some rod bearings from my 168,*** mile Red Witch:

image.png

Original rod bearings at top. New Glyco rod bearings at bottom. Rod cap and used nuts at right.
The original bearings look good, with only a couple of scratches. PlastiGauge showed clearance was good, as well. I could have reused the bearings. I chose to install new. On my back. Under the car...

image.png

Connecting rod journal. It looks great. NOTE: the red caps are on the rod studs, to keep them from scratching the crankshaft. I pushed the rod/piston up in the cylinder to gain access to replace the bearing in the connecting rod.
You do NOT have to do this to check the bearing. Just pull the rod cap.



Good Luck!

[Stepson]

I would use this opportunity to replace the seal between the oil pickup strainer and the block. Quick and easy to do at this point.

[worf]

I would use this opportunity to replace the seal between the oil pickup strainer and the block. Quick and easy to do at this point.

But, if you do that you must get the Porsche part. The seal that comes in the Victor-Reinz gasket set must not be used.

The two parts are quite different.

[worf]

… but what is he looking for by doing this? What is he expecting to find?

Exactly what Seth wrote!

[WyattsRide]

Excellent information guys! Thank you all. I will be pulling the #2 and #6 connecting RB's soon and will post pictures.

[Mrmerlin]

Howdy any updates?

[WyattsRide]

Howdy any updates?

A little bit of an update Stan and all that is interested.

The heads are back and done! (I haven't unwrapped them yet to get a picture) The Exhaust Valves were damaged, so all were replaced with Seth's donation. Thanks again Seth. I will repay somehow for your generosity.

This is from the machine shop

Strip & soda blast both cylinder heads
Replace worn valve guides with new
Three-angle valve job performed & re-face all valves
Resurface cylinder head gasket surfaces - .003/4"
Valve adjustment & re-assembly
Remove eight broken valve cover bolts
Repair nine bolt holes with inserts as needed
Re-clean heads for delivery

Because the machine shop that was used for this, only deals with certain mechanic shops and not the general public, my mechanic handled all the transactions and running parts back and forth to the machine shop. He also sourced the valve guides. I supplied the new valve seals and used Exhaust valves.

Total cost for everything was $1200. Don't know if this is good or bad.

So, now I'm in the process of getting the cam covers, intakes, oil filler neck etc. powder coated. I also pulled the #2 and #6 rod bearings. My mechanic checked them out. Nothing unusual about the wear. Actually better than what he expected to see on an engine with 120K miles. But, since I'm this far into this, I should replace them all and I will.

I still need a lot of parts from Roger to keep things moving. I'm in that process also.

Lots of stuff in my personal life going on too, which is effecting my desire to focus on my car. It will get done though because I miss driving it so much! There's so much to do. It will just take a while more.

I really appreciate everyone's help! I'll add some pictures soon.

[WyattsRide]

Rick, let me spend your money for you:
With the engine on a stand and upside down, order 4 new connecting rod nuts and check the bearings in #2 and #6 connecting rods.
Or, be dumb like me, and order 16 connecting rod nuts and a set of Glyco rod bearings.
No better time than now.

OK Seth, I'll bite.
Where do I get the Glyco bearings and nuts?

Do I Plastigauge to check clearance AFTER install of new bearings to make sure they are in spec? Or since I'm going to replacing with new, no checking of clearance is necessary? Only check if I was planning on using the old bearings.

[WyattsRide]

I would use this opportunity to replace the seal between the oil pickup strainer and the block. Quick and easy to do at this point.

Thanks! I'll look into this.

[The Fat Man]

Rick, let me spend your money for you:
With the engine on a stand and upside down, order 4 new connecting rod nuts and check the bearings in #2 and #6 connecting rods.
Or, be dumb like me, and order 16 connecting rod nuts and a set of Glyco rod bearings.
No better time than now.

OK Seth, I'll bite.
Where do I get the Glyco bearings and nuts?

Do I Plastigauge to check clearance AFTER install of new bearings to make sure they are in spec? Or since I'm going to replacing with new, no checking of clearance is necessary? Only check if I was planning on using the old bearings.

Hi Rick!

Roger has the bearings and connecting rod nuts. That's where I got mine.
Use the Plastigauge as a check AFTER installing the new bearings. Just to make sure everything is correct. Meaning the bearings are the correct clearance.

[The Fat Man]

Rick, your list of head work looks excellent for $1200. I paid $1500 to have the same work done. Regardless of price, you had the heads done correctly. Well done!

Good progress, and keep moving forward as best you can. However, do NOT let this get under your skin. Take care of your personal issues. Your 928 will patiently wait for you. If nothing else, incremental progress is still progress.

Hang in there, buddy!


Also, don't get too hung up on paying me back for the exhaust valves. I sent them to you in good faith, to help you. We agreed upon a bag of cheeseburgers as the purchase price. And that is what I expect. I did not send them to you to later hold it over your head. I sent the valves as a kind of 'pay it forward' kind of thing. You needed help. I helped.

[worf]

Do I Plastigauge to check clearance AFTER install of new bearings to make sure they are in spec? Or since I'm going to replacing with new, no checking of clearance is necessary? Only check if I was planning on using the old bearings.

Use the Plastigauge as a check AFTER installing the new bearings. Just to make sure everything is correct. Meaning the bearings are the correct clearance.

In case it isn’t obvious: you use the old con rod nuts when you are assembling/disassembling for bearing selection.

When you are satisfied with clearance, the new nuts are used for the final assembly,

[WyattsRide]

Hi Rick!

Roger has the bearings and connecting rod nuts. That's where I got mine.
Use the Plastigauge as a check AFTER installing the new bearings. Just to make sure everything is correct. Meaning the bearings are the correct clearance.

Excellent! Thanks

Rick, your list of head work looks excellent for $1200. I paid $1500 to have the same work done. Regardless of price, you had the heads done correctly. Well done!

Good progress, and keep moving forward as best you can. However, do NOT let this get under your skin. Take care of your personal issues. Your 928 will patiently wait for you. If nothing else, incremental progress is still progress.

Hang in there, buddy!


Also, don't get too hung up on paying me back for the exhaust valves. I sent them to you in good faith, to help you. We agreed upon a bag of cheeseburgers as the purchase price. And that is what I expect. I did not send them to you to later hold it over your head. I sent the valves as a kind of 'pay it forward' kind of thing. You needed help. I helped.

Again, thanks for the encouraging words. I need them. I'll especially need them in the next few months.

In case it isn’t obvious: you use the old con rod nuts when you are assembling/disassembling for bearing selection.

When you are satisfied with clearance, the new nuts are used for the final assembly,

This is what I thought. Thanks for the confirmation!!

[Bertrand Daoust]

Just take the time it needs Rick.
I understand that you want to drive it as soon as possible but one thing at a time.
It will be back on the road some day. I'm sure about that...
I hope everything will go well for you in the next few months brother.
Really hope to have the chance to see you in July!

[The Fat Man]

Do I Plastigauge to check clearance AFTER install of new bearings to make sure they are in spec? Or since I'm going to replacing with new, no checking of clearance is necessary? Only check if I was planning on using the old bearings.

Use the Plastigauge as a check AFTER installing the new bearings. Just to make sure everything is correct. Meaning the bearings are the correct clearance.

In case it isn’t obvious: you use the old con rod nuts when you are assembling/disassembling for bearing selection.

When you are satisfied with clearance, the new nuts are used for the final assembly,

VERY good point!!!
And, keep the new nuts FAR away from the used nuts while doing all this. Ask me why...

[Mrmerlin]

please post pictures of the 2/6 rod bearings you might be able to reuse them,
and not replace any of the others.

NOTE Based on info from GB there are different rod bearing MFG tolerances,
so you could buy a few sets of bearings before you find what you need.
IOW you could screw up an assembly that otherwise would have worked as it should.

Sounds like you got the Mechanic price for the heads,
I would have thought it would have cost more

[WyattsRide]

Got motivated from the PVGP/Rendezvous 928 weekend. Really missed having my car with everyone else's.

Awesome meeting you Dave (Worf) and thanks for all the advice.

I had a lot of guys looking at my #2 and #6 Rod Bearings. Many many opinions on what I should do. Everyone said the bearings looked great except where I scratched the surfaces when removing them. Some said put them back in and be done. Some said change them all anyways since you're in there.

I'm going with what Stan recommended. IF I didn't damage the bearings, I could have put them back in. Since I damaged them, replace with new. I'm not going to replace the rest of the bearings.

Last night I Plastigaged #2 and #6 with the OLD BEARING SHELLS.

#2 (.038 mm is within spec)


#6 (.038 mm is within spec)


Installed NEW Glyco bearings in #6
.038 mm is within spec for new bearings. .02 mm - .07 mm


I didn't have enough time replace with new in #2. But, if the new bearings end up within spec, I'm final cleaning, lubing and torquing down the new nuts. Loc-tite them?

I bought some engine assembly lube. Do I apply to the bearing/journal surfaces? Between the bearing and caps? Not at all? I can't find anything definite on this.

[Scott at Team Harco]

Nothing under the bearing! Only use it on bearing to crank surfaces and where relative motion occurs.

[worf]

I'm going with what Stan recommended. IF I didn't damage the bearings, I could have put them back in. Since I damaged them, replace with new. I'm not going to replace the rest of the bearings.

That was my suggestion also: just renew #2 and #6.

I'm final cleaning, lubing and torquing down the new nuts. Loc-tite them?

No. Just torque them to spec.

I bought some engine assembly lube. Do I apply to the bearing/journal surfaces? Between the bearing and caps? Not at all? I can't find anything definite on this.

You apply the lube to surfaces that slide over each other. So, the side of the shell where it slides against the crank.

Do not get assembly lube on the end cap nuts or threads. Always clean up assembly lube that gets on fasteners, bolt holes, threads, etc.

[Mrmerlin]

Not to be dumb here BUT As obvious as it is make sure that the rod caps are properly installed,
so the numbers match.
I hope you marked them prior to removal

[WyattsRide]

Not to be dumb here BUT As obvious as it is make sure that the rod caps are properly installed,
so the numbers match.
I hope you marked them prior to removal

Yep. Made sure of that!

[WyattsRide]

Update:
Replaced #2 rod bearings, replace oil strainer and new gasket. New oil pan gasket and closed her up. Was able to work out exactly where the (6) short bolts and (24) long bolts needed to be, even though I failed to chart them when I took them out.



Next refurbished the tensioner, rollers and bushings. Didn't squeeze the clamp yet until I make sure it's in the correct position and doesn't interfere with the center cover.

Wrong pliers.


Turned the engine over and was just checking out the Head Gaskets. The location lug holes are very tight. Just press them through until gasket is flush?


Again, I failed to chart the head bolts when taking them out. But, I did separate the Left Head Bolts from the Right Head Bolts. If that matters. Cleaned the bolts and washers up for re using.
I thought I read somewhere, that all the bolts when attaching the heads to the block should be level. Is this statement correct? So I hand tightened them into the block as far as they would go and the upper left corners (as you are looking at each side of the block) are the short bolts.



Questions about the head bolts and washers.
1. Should the surface of washer that contacts the head be roughed up?
2. Should there be anti-seize applied between the surface of the washer and bolt head?
3. Oil on the bolt threads or just dry?

Any other comments, recommendations, tips/tricks before I bolt on the heads per the WS Manual?

This part is giving me anxiety!

[worf]

Replaced #2 rod bearings, replace oil strainer and new gasket.

You replaced the gasket for the oil pickup tube to the cylinder block? Did you use the Porsche part (that has three distinct ODs) or the V-R part in the gasket set (that has only one OD.)

If the latter you need to pull the pan and replace the pickup tube gasket with the Porsche part.

Didn't squeeze the clamp yet until I make sure it's in the correct
position and doesn't interfere with the center cover.

Crimp on clamp faces "up" when the tensioner is installed.

The location lug holes are very tight. Just press them through until gasket is flush?

Yes. And the heads will do that for you when you place them.

I thought I read somewhere, that all the bolts when attaching the heads to the block should be level. Is this statement correct?

For each head there are 9 long bolts, 9 deep holes, 1 short bolt and one shallow hole

So I hand tightened them into the block as far as they would go and the upper left corners (as you are looking at each side of the block) are the short bolts.

I do believe that's correct.

Questions about the head bolts and washers.
1. Should the surface of washer that contacts the head be roughed up?

Yes. Cross hatch with a bit of sand paper.

When you do the initial torque the washer must not spin. If it does take out the bolt, re-rough up the washer and try again.

2. Should there be anti-seize applied between the surface of the washer and bolt head?

No.

3. Oil on the bolt threads or just dry?

WSM calls for light coating of motor oil. (You should check this by finding that in the WSM.)

After the first torque, some folks will tell you that the washers must not turn when you do the 90-degree bolt turns.

I have yet to determine a technical reason why that is true. The initial torque yes. The 90-degree turn no.

[WyattsRide]

Questions about the head bolts and washers.
1. Should the surface of washer that contacts the head be roughed up?

Yes. Cross hatch with a bit of sand paper.

When you do the initial torque the washer must not spin. If it does take out the bolt, re-rough up the washer and try again.

OK, how do I determine if the washer spins on the initial torque? Can I see it? Will I feel it?
Thanks Dave

[worf]

OK, how do I determine if the washer spins on the initial torque?

Paint pen.

[worf]

To be precise: Once you’ve got the head bolt hand tight, *then* you want to observe the washer when you torque it to 20 N-m (IIRC; always check the the book for torque.) It doesn’t matter if it spins while it’s loose on the bolt.

[WyattsRide]

To be precise: Once you’ve got the head bolt hand tight, *then* you want to observe the washer when you torque it to 20 N-m (IIRC; always check the the book for torque.) It doesn’t matter if it spins while it’s loose on the bolt.

Got it!! Thanks

[Geza-aka-Zombo]

Nice work. Hope she's ready for Frenzy.

Observation on the tensioner: My S4 had 2 oil fill nipples here as I recall.

[WyattsRide]

Nice work. Hope she's ready for Frenzy.

Observation on the tensioner: My S4 had 2 oil fill nipples here as I recall.

Don't think it will Geza. Nice dream though!

I will be installing your UTVD soon. Just trying to get a handle on when would be the best time in the sequence of putting the engine back together.

[worf]

Observation on the tensioner: My S4 had 2 oil fill nipples here as I recall.

The pre-S4 ones have those plugs.

The *really* old ones don’t even have *holes*… makes’em a bit harder to fill with oil.

[Bertrand Daoust]

I was wondering too about those plugs.
Never seen those.
Thanks for the clarification Dave!

And keep up the good work brother.
You'll get through it!

[WyattsRide]

I was wondering too about those plugs.
Never seen those.
Thanks for the clarification Dave!

And keep up the good work brother.
You'll get through it!

Thanks for the encouragement Brother!

[WyattsRide]

Bolted the heads on this weekend.

After hand tightening before the 20nm torque, I marked the washers. Only three or four times did the washer turn when torquing. So, I pulled them back out and sanded it again.



Using a friend's Snap-On digital torque wrench was great! The 90 degree torques were confidently done using it! Need to get one of these.



Picked up my powder coated pieces also. Turned out very good for the most part. I know i have so many things still to do with these before they can be used.
I'm not happy with intake manifold 5&6 though. Turned out very pitted and ugly. My PC guys said because of corrosion on the casting. I don't know. Didn't look that bad when I when I gave them to him. I'm looking into getting another to have redone.

I'm happy with color I selected. Prismatic Powders Champagne Gold PMB-4782
Not sure yet if I'm going to paint the distributor housing runner letters or not.




Intake manifold 5 & 6

[worf]

The castings are pretty rough under the - thick - coating.

At least on ‘87+.

But, that looks like damage from media blasting.

Intake manifold 5 & 6

[WyattsRide]

I want to start putting the heads back together.

Before setting the cam shafts, I think I need to put the WP on (with the pointer) and the dampener, to set the crank at 45. Is this correct?

Then using the 9226/4 and 9226/3 gauges, to make sure the cam lobes are in the correct position.



Colin has a great video on this also. He mentioned the crank at 45 BTDC early in the video, so I guess he answered my above question.



This is also a very informative video.



Next
What can I do about the Firewall foil? Should I just clean it? Or is there something better that I can put over top? Any experience on doing this?

What about the Heat shields near the Motor Mounts? They have an insulation on them that is deteriorating. Something new for this? Any ideas?

[Bertrand Daoust]

Hi Rick,

For the insulation on the heat shields (motor mount), I used this product last year on mine (thanks Dave for the link!):
https://www.designengineering.com/form- ... rrencyId=1
Sorry, the link is in french! :)

[WyattsRide]

Hi Rick,

For the insulation on the heat shields (motor mount), I used this product last year on mine (thanks Dave for the link!):
https://www.designengineering.com/form- ... rrencyId=1
Sorry, the link is in french! :)

Great! Just what I'm looking for. Thanks Bertrand.