- Sat Aug 21, 2021 9:41 pm
#99401
Hot news is the crazy prices cars are going for these days.
Has the 928 seen any love in all of this?
Has the 928 seen any love in all of this?
86.5 Meteor Metallic 928
checkmate1996 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:41 am BAT recently sold an 84 euro which needed a significant amount of work (e.g. interior and WB/TP) for IIRC $45k....BAT has become the place where lipstick is placed on 928 pigs. Sellers knowingly selling TBF cars, etc., and some on forums complaining bitterly about anyone that attempts to illuminate the information asymmetry between buyers and sellers.
checkmate1996 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:24 am In this case, the seller appeared to do a good job being as transparent as one can tell with all the needs required and the interior spoke for itself and it still sold for $45k; which i think is good. I mean 911s of the same vintage/condition sell for >$45k all day long. Given the quality of these cars and road handling capabilities especially compared to a ferrari 308 and other similar super cars during that era, they are due. The gray market twin dizzy euros are a special car and should climb with them being the niche within the niche...Agreed and can’t argue with any of that… at least in a context of “air-cooled 911 prices are illogical.”
worf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:59 amOK Dave, do you have an example of a BaT car being knowingly sold with TBF? I follow that site very closely, and I have yet to see that. For the record, I do not at all disagree with your call out for end play check on each auction of post 85 auto box cars. I agree with you. You also do it at or near the beginning of an auction. All perfectly appropriate for a known issue.checkmate1996 wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:41 am BAT recently sold an 84 euro which needed a significant amount of work (e.g. interior and WB/TP) for IIRC $45k....BAT has become the place where lipstick is placed on 928 pigs. Sellers knowingly selling TBF cars, etc., and some on forums complaining bitterly about anyone that attempts to illuminate the information asymmetry between buyers and sellers.
So… I guess that’s good?
linderpat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:24 am For everyone else following along, I'm the guy Dave is calling out. I wouldn't characterize it as bitterly complaining either, but whatever.You are not the only example of BaT denizens displeased with some of my posts. BaT itself (either via human intervention or trained filters) has removed comments I have made on the subject of TBF in several 928 auctions.
linderpat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:24 am OK Dave, do you have an example of a BaT car being knowingly sold with TBF? I follow that site very closely, and I have yet to see that.The TBF '90 that sold this spring changed hands too many times too quickly. I have 'off-the-record' first-hand accounts from several folks that make me very suspicious that the general condition of that 928 wasn't known (if not known, strongly suspected) when it was offered for sale.
linderpat wrote: ↑Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:24 am I objected to GB killing a guy's auction with less than a half hour to go. That was a very specific thing.I was totally oblivious to that auction having already made the decision to refrain from posting on most 928 auctions. (Especially auctions for 87+ automatics.)
worf wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 1:08 am .......As I pointed out previously, that was never a question raised by me, or my point. Obviously head gaskets are a wear item and need to be replaced over time. I am not a total idiot (soome would argue this of course )
And yes, in answer to one of your TOS posts: every 928's head gaskets are rotting away. Even the head gaskets I installed last year are rotting away. I expect them to need to be replaced in 20 to 25 years or so. But, any 928 running factory-installed head gaskets is a time bomb that I think has a good chance of going off in the next 10 years. And since the earlier heads are more resilient than the later heads, the bombs will be synchronized.
linderpat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:26 am As I pointed out previously, that was never a question raised by me, or my point. Obviously head gaskets are a wear item and need to be replaced over time. I am not a total idiot (soome would argue this of course )I think the 'conversation' is getting muddled by conflating head gasket deterioration and head pitting.
linderpat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:26 am My point - and for one more time to be stellar clear - is that I have questions about the incidence and seriousness of the pitting of the heads from coolant seepage around the gaskets in every case on a low mileage car (or any mileage for that matter).I understand this - that you are skeptical that every single 928 has deadly head corrosion. That's fine. I've never written that.
linderpat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:26 am That is being painted as the newest most serious issue confronting us, and make the cars a lot less desirable.This I don't understand. Either knowledge is good. Or knowledge is bad. Or you do not believe what is being posted?
linderpat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:26 am Now that has been clarified on rennlist that it is an issue mostly associated with the 87+ engines. My point is that one cannot make a blanket statement about it - the condition, which obviously exists in certain cases (I've seen the pictures too), is dependent on a number of factors including maintanence history and coolant used, etc.Again, the only unqualified blanket statement I've made is that head gaskets cannot be expected to have a design lifetime in excess of 30 years.
linderpat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:26 am If you and Greg are saying none of that matters, and that pitting will occur no matter what, then I would not touch a post 86 car and never recommend to anyone to buy one. They are ticking time bombs in need of replacement engines, and that is an unacceptable defect. I have a hard time believing that this state of affairs is actually the case. I have seen pictures of blocks where no pitting has occurred under circumstances where one would have expected it.I've never made such statements vis-à-vis corrosion and you are applying a too-broad brush. First don't conflate block corrosion with head corrosion. Next realize that the 'time bomb' issue has two manifestations and that head corrosion is actually the least serious manifestation.
SeanR wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:21 pm Personal experience on head gaskets, the 1990+ cars are the worst.The 90+ heads suck because of the casting porosity. 'my guy' has done enough heads for me now, that this is a hill I'll die on.
SeanR wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 12:21 pm I don't know if they used a different material on the gaskets but everyone I've had to tear down required welding on the heads because of it. Most are low mile examples that just sat. Took down an '80 Euro with 100k on it a couple months ago and while the gaskets were 40 years old, they looked pretty damn good, and that's usually what I find on the early cars.I'm not sure exactly why, but what you wrote above and/or exactly the way you wrote it, make a mental gear turn in my head.
worf wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:53 amUnfortunately, this is the wrong thread to have such an interesting discussion about things that are more technical in nature and don't really affect the value. I just picked out a couple of the interesting points here.
.....
- the later heads (90+) are more porous than the earlier heads. It is the porosity of the castings that makes the later heads more expensive to repair and ALSO what causes them to exhibit far more deterioration due to crevice corrosion when coolant is allowed to 'go bad.'
- ensuring that the additive package in the coolant is refreshed on schedule will limit corrosion.
- nothing we do will enable head gaskets to last indefinitely.
.....
Asbestos was used in automotive gaskets.
Was it ever used in 928 head gaskets? If so, when did it stop?
If 928s stopped using head gaskets with asbestos in MY'87, or '88, or '89, would that further explain why we see 16v head gaskets that look better than 10-year younger 32v head gaskets?