8 cylinder front engine iconic vehicle
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By grepin
#151918
What is the smart option for replacing the fuel regulators on my model. Its only because I think they re still original and probably need updating. I like the idea of the new billet style versions as they allow flexibility. I am running a VEMS ECU and will no doubt change a few things down track. Injectors etc. It doesn’t seem there is a billet style available for my model. I see Roger has aftermarket ones available. Can they support a moderate amount of increased demand if need be. Also whats the best way to replace the injectors for my model with a more modern style and or type. Mine are the ones held in place by the short fuel hose. Just looking to get the best out of my car in prep for proper dyno tuning. I have contacted Roger but no answer. I know other vendors have adapters for more modern injectors. I am not even sure of what flow rate to target yet.
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By Herr-Kuhn
#151943
I would not see a reason to change the fuel rails/regulators at all unless something just isn't working properly. If all is working as intended, I would just leave them alone. We've never used anything except stock rails, regulators and dampers on any of the engines we've built here. On the 900+ HP 32V twin turbo I did use two dampers on the front of the rails from the 944S2. The biggest issue right now on those regulators is the cost. I know some are attempting to make bolt on versions of those that don't cost a fortune.
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By grepin
#152043
Thanks for the reply. I was having a few erratic idle issues however believe it was in the tuning. Seems better now. When I had my injectors cleaned and flow checked a couple were down on performance so had a mind set to maybe upgrade all one day. I was considering that the modern injectors like bosch stuff produced a better spray pattern it could be worth it. However happy to stick with what I have. What I should do is a fuel pressure check and asses things the right way. If the 30 year old regulators are holding pressure then all good I guess. No signs of leaking last I checked but time to have another look. I am away with work ATM but I will post my injector flow results down track to see what you guys think.
I should also add the car sat around for an unknown amount of years with a dry fuel system.
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By Crumpler
#152093
Hey Greg,
Do you see AFR/lambda fluctuations as well (on VEMS)?

I do, not sure what is normal, I was becoming suspicious of the fuel dampers. They are original.
Mine hold vacuum but I can’t vouch for diaphragm or spring rates or whatever the hell dictates the damper function.
I was going to call Roger too, but haven’t had time.

I have notes from another thread that there is an aftermarket option through Radium, but requires fittings converting to AN, etc.
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By worf
#152100
FYI, I’m working (on-and-off with the owner of) an ‘84 Euro with vexing but mild running issues. We’ve tested damn-near everything.

Attempting to ascertain correct function of the damper and regulators is next on the agenda.

So, I’m eager to know if replacement of those makes a noticeable difference.

@grepin I’d also suggest giving Greg/Mary Brown a call; he’s got his own regulator/damper dog in this hunt.
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By grepin
#152186
Crumpler wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 10:26 am Hey Greg,
Do you see AFR/lambda fluctuations as well (on VEMS)?

I do, not sure what is normal, I was becoming suspicious of the fuel dampers. They are original.
Mine hold vacuum but I can’t vouch for diaphragm or spring rates or whatever the hell dictates the damper function.
I was going to call Roger too, but haven’t had time.

I have notes from another thread that there is an aftermarket option through Radium, but requires fittings converting to AN, etc.
Hi Dave,
I am going to say the AFR does move around. I think it sort of always has however I reverted back to an older tune and am now allowing the VEMS to relearn everything. I guess damper could be in question as well. I feel like I need a secondary AFR analyzer to be sure. Time to check my fuel pressures and see if there are any major fluctuations in the read out.
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By Crumpler
#152194
grepin wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 7:01 pm
Crumpler wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 10:26 am Hey Greg,
Do you see AFR/lambda fluctuations as well (on VEMS)?

I do, not sure what is normal, I was becoming suspicious of the fuel dampers. They are original.
Mine hold vacuum but I can’t vouch for diaphragm or spring rates or whatever the hell dictates the damper function.
I was going to call Roger too, but haven’t had time.

I have notes from another thread that there is an aftermarket option through Radium, but requires fittings converting to AN, etc.
Hi Dave,
I am going to say the AFR does move around. I think it sort of always has however I reverted back to an older tune and am now allowing the VEMS to relearn everything. I guess damper could be in question as well. I feel like I need a secondary AFR analyzer to be sure. Time to check my fuel pressures and see if there are any major fluctuations in the read out.
Please let me know what you find. I have not checked my fuel pressures for awhile, and then only at idle.

I have a secondary Innovate wide-band, it lives on the other side of the xpipe from the primary. And actually it’s another source of concern for me.
The innovate reads about two points higher(leaner) then the primary that VEMS reads.
I don’t think it’s injector or air leak causing a lean condition one bank, I’m suspicious it’s calibration of the two sensors. The innovate calibrates at 22.7 on free air and VEMS calibrates free air at 20.9. Is this a likely reason?

Also not to hijack thread, here is a picture of my AFR oscillation as a potential reference point for your VEMS readings:
Image
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By worf
#152199
Crumpler wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:01 pm I have a secondary Innovate wide-band, it lives on the other side of the xpipe from the primary. And actually it’s another source of concern for me.
Is the VEMS-connected sensor a wide-band also? Or narrow-band?
Crumpler wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 8:01 pm The innovate reads about two points higher(leaner) then the primary that VEMS reads.
I don’t think it’s injector or air leak causing a lean condition one bank, I’m suspicious it’s calibration of the two sensors. The innovate calibrates at 22.7 on free air and VEMS calibrates free air at 20.9. Is this a likely reason?
Swap the sensors side-to-side. That may tell you if it's the motor or the sensor cal.

S4s/GTs run leaner on one side than the other. (I forget which, would have to dig up 15 year-old notes.) As I recall, from when my head was full of this stuff, that that condition was more-or-less expected given a 90° crank on a V8 with the stock manifolds and batch fire injection.
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By Crumpler
#152201
Dave that’s a good idea, thanks.
Yeah, both are widebands.

That’s interesting about the potential to run one side leaner. Beg’s the question, if so then which side do you tune the ecu on?
The difference of two whole points seems huge though, surely it’s my sensors? I will get some data.
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By Hey_Allen
#152235
For what it's worth, the Innovate wide bands are somewhat known for drifting calibration, at least on the megasquirt forums.
With that in mind, I definitely second the suggestion to swap sides and see if the offset follows.
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By worf
#152238
Crumpler wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 9:19 pm Yeah, both are widebands.
Figured. Wanted to be sure.

The A/F picture above is reminiscent of the sweep behavior required by a narrowband sensor.

Do you have *displayed* RPM fluctuations that are similar to that of the A/F?

Crumpler wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 9:19 pm That’s interesting about the potential to run one side leaner. Beg’s the question, if so then which side do you tune the ecu on?
IIRC the difference is ~0.3 AFR.

Crumpler wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 9:19 pm The difference of two whole points seems huge though, surely it’s my sensors? I will get some data.
Might be both. But, swapping will provide data.
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By Crumpler
#152276
Got it.
That makes sense to me thanks.

No real rpm fluctuations during these events.
That pic shows the top cell, black line, as rpm’s.
Red line is MAP, which are both steady state highway driving.
I will dig around on sensors and post findings in different thread. Sorry to sidetrack Greg.
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By worf
#152319
Crumpler wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 10:12 am That pic shows the top cell, black line, as rpm’s.
Ok. Since the Y-axis is out of frame, I can't tell.

I ask because CPSs have an uncommon failure mode where the signal is sufficiently poor/noisy that the EZK will derive the wrong engine speed. (I see no reason to think that the same CPS with EZF wouldn't also host this uncommon failure mode.)

When it happens you get sinusoidal RPM, timing, and A/F fluctuations.
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By maddog2020
#152332
worf wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 11:13 am FYI, I’m working (on-and-off with the owner of) an ‘84 Euro with vexing but mild running issues. We’ve tested damn-near everything.

Attempting to ascertain correct function of the damper and regulators is next on the agenda.

So, I’m eager to know if replacement of those makes a noticeable difference.

@grepin I’d also suggest giving Greg/Mary Brown a call; he’s got his own regulator/damper dog in this hunt.
The challenge is that GB trash talks anything he didn't design and my personal experience with some of his products puts him in the 928ms arena, of selling un tested, it must work theory products. It's getting to the point where people don't trust him or his idea's.
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By worf
#152343
maddog2020 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 3:16 pm The challenge is that GB trash talks anything he didn't design and my personal experience with some of his products puts him in the 928ms arena, of selling un tested, it must work theory products. It's getting to the point where people don't trust him or his idea's.
Acknowledged.

I have no direct knowledge of either of the replacement damper/regulator designs currently being offered. If I was in need of one would investigate both and make my own assessment.
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By Crumpler
#152406
I wouldn’t know how to investigate a GB product, honestly.

Certainly any information he would post himself would be bombast. No specifics or data or images would be offered. His default answer would be to protect himself from thieves and serpents.

I have gathered from the copious amounts of his grievance posts, that some category of parts are only for clients that use his shop for rebuild services or people he “trusts”. Other parts are retail, but not through any vendors. (Let’s just say if you can piss Roger off, you are doing something wrong.)

I would not feel comfortable calling him and ordering anything, based on the tone and content of forum exchanges with him in the past.
He can live in his world, where he invented the clutch and the combustion engine. I’m ok not in it.
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By maddog2020
#152424
I purchased his tilton clutch setup, and he cut off my support during my install, because he and Roger got in a tussle. His installation instructions didn’t work and my thrust bearings got roasted when the clutch wouldn’t disengage. I then found out his clutch kits have roasted 5 or more motors. Oh, he isn’t an authorized tilton dealer so they wouldn’t support me either. I purchased a new tilton TO bearing after the fiasco, and then tilton provided support. GB’s instructions tell you to do what tilton expressly tells you NOT TO DO.
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By grepin
#152428
I am away with work. Once I get back and do some assessments I will post my findings. Looks like a few options to check. And also yes I may swap banks for the WB02. I know I did swap it over as it was a better fit. Might be when issues started......not sure. Pity innovate systems are not reliable either. When I get a dyno tune done I will keep an eye on how its AFR meter compares. I just want it all in good order before I do otherwise it will be pointless.
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By Hey_Allen
#152454
I sold my Innovate wideband before I used it and replaced it with a pair of 14point7 Spartan wideband sensors.

My megasquirt install was then delayed by that project car being in an accident so I can't say how well they work, but 14point7 had a good reputation as well as a reasonable price point.
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By grepin
#154802
Here were the results from my injector clean and flow test. Not sure what is a good result. A couple were down compared to the others at max power (4&8). I think I put them on opposite banks. They were numbered I will need to check again.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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By worf
#154812
A good result would be one or two percent variation across them.
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By checkmate1996
#157925
I've restored three euros; 84 and two 85s. From everything I gathered in the RL archives, the euros seem to be under fueled which can create some mid range hesitation. (many have done the 85 US FPR swap or universal FPR swaps to try and boost- This was also pre-adapter era)I had a similar problem on my 84 when I first got it. The PO had been stumped for 15 years. I changed the MAF, spark plug wires, spark plugs, caps, new vacuum lines, etc; couldn't seem to resolve. I did the bosch 4 hole adapter upgrade and the vehicle seemed to come alive. Idle was better, mid range response was better. Hesitation gone. Ran great. I made this an automatic upgrade on the other two which also run great. YMMV
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By grepin
#158026
Nice. I have contacted Roger and am going to get a set of the adaptors and 24lb injectors. Probably replace the regulators with his after market ones. Hopefully they will be ok.
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By checkmate1996
#158027
If the current regulators are not leaking, I wouldn’t bother.
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By checkmate1996
#158028
Also make sure you get new hose and clamps
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By grepin
#158204
Will do. They are not too old and sealed nice at the rails so if Ok I may keep. But will definitely asses when out. But yes will need clamps for the adapter end.
For the regulators when you say leak do you mean vacuum. Last I checked with the might vac they were ok and there doesn't seem to be any fuel pushing through. As I was chasing a slight hunting issue at idle I was wondering if the elasticity had gone in the regulators. Or could it be the damper? As I am in Australia I sometimes get everything I may need as its another $100 in postage if I dont. Happy to save money however...
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By checkmate1996
#158307
You may need new hose because those they will need to be removed and typically the hose is designed not to be removed without being damaged because if the barbed ends. Now UNLESS you have the wrong size, they may slide off but that’s another problem.
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By Crumpler
#158417
This is still an effort to separate VEMS idiosyncratic behavior v. any potential hardware issues for you.
When you say hunting at idle, is it with EGO correction on?

I’m starting to circle back on mine, in regards to lambda fluctuations. I can track dTPS enrichment to the oscillation pretty consistently.
It’s hypersensitive, just driving even throttle I get consistent micro adjustments.
Turning down enrichment past a certain number for low tps position gets me a validation flag with the ecu.
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By Hey_Allen
#158435
I don't have VEMS experience, but does it have any sort of warmup delay, where it runs in open loop until the coolant temp is above a certain point?

If so, does this oscillation behavior only appear once that temp is exceeded, or is it present below that threshold?
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By grepin
#158561
Yeah its open loop effectively until it warms up. The VEMS tells you when its good to go. I put new plugs in and it ran real rough for a while and settled down. Spitting lots of fluid out the back. Anyway its seems to be ok for now. I disconnected the Electronic Air control. I dont think thats it however it never allowed the the car to idle up when the aircon was engaged. It seems to work with a clean source of power to it....well it makes a noise. Anyway it now has a fuel cut sensation when at 5000rpm. I left the plugs at 30 thou. I will take them back to 28 thou gap and see how it goes. I am keen to get the car on the dyno and see what is actually going on. First I will get the new injectors in and rule out any shortfalls when its on the dyno. One thing resolves itself and another shows up. Its all good however. If it worked fine where is the fun in that. I tell myself...

Might be time to look at open loop tuning.
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By grepin
#158740
What req fuel did you set it to with the 24 lb injectors. No doubt all the current fuelling setups will be out. I dont think I anywhere near the ideal anyway.
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By Crumpler
#158772
Currently req fuel set at 11.1.
These are actually 25 pound injectors apparently, from Five O Motorsports.
Because They came with dead time values, I changed the injector settings from traditional to simplified compensation strategy FWIW.

You are spot on with this one thing fixed one thing pops up experience.
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By grepin
#163893
checkmate1996 wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:51 pm I've restored three euros; 84 and two 85s. From everything I gathered in the RL archives, the euros seem to be under fueled which can create some mid range hesitation. (many have done the 85 US FPR swap or universal FPR swaps to try and boost- This was also pre-adapter era)I had a similar problem on my 84 when I first got it. The PO had been stumped for 15 years. I changed the MAF, spark plug wires, spark plugs, caps, new vacuum lines, etc; couldn't seem to resolve. I did the bosch 4 hole adapter upgrade and the vehicle seemed to come alive. Idle was better, mid range response was better. Hesitation gone. Ran great. I made this an automatic upgrade on the other two which also run great. YMMV
Did you have a part number for the injectors you used. Did you need to modify the PINTEL cap. They would would need to body shape to use the original hold down collars.

Thanks

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