Mid-engine cars
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By fpena944
#206125
Ever since Porsche made the announcement that they are going to fully electrify the Cayman and other 718 related models, I've been puzzled as it seems this platform is becoming more popular on the track than the 911.

Seems like Porsche finally admitted this and plans to sell the two together at least in the short term. My hope is though that they'll realize there's probably a market for both.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/autos-h ... r-AA18MGaE
Text Snippet
As more automakers begin to set electrification plans in stone, it means losing beloved internal combustion engine (ICE) models. But it’s not their fault; governments worldwide are starting to ban fossil-fuel-burning vehicles. Thus, electric-only offerings are taking over traditional nameplates to prepare for the upcoming changes. On the other hand, Porsche is one of few brands left providing a single model with either plug-in propulsion or a traditional ICE powerplant. For now, at least, the Porsche 718 will stand beside the 718 EV in the company’s lineup.

The 718 EV set to replace the gasoline-only Porsche 718

At Porsche’s first investor conference of the year, company CEO Oliver Blume touted the brand’s progress toward electrification. Set to debut in 2025, the Porsche 718 EV will serve as an entry-level electric sports car. The plug-in Porsche will join the popular four-door Taycan and the delayed compact crossover Macan EV.

While the focus is placed on the company’s market share of the EV world, their ICE offerings aren’t falling by the wayside. Despite ambitions to be all-electric by the “middle of the decade,” Porsche won’t say goodbye to the ICE Porsche 718 yet. Blume said they will launch the 2025 Porsche 718 EV “in parallel to the ICE version,” CarScoops reports. However, it’s a short-lived automotive pleasure. Blume added, “In the medium run, the 718 will then be exclusively available as an all-electric model.”

What’s the 2023 Porsche 718 Cayman like?

With a turbocharged 2.0-liter flat-four, the base 718 wades into the sports car battle with 300 horsepower. The 718 Cayman T also has the turbo-four. The S variant gains half a liter and 50 horsepower, but the Cayman GTS is stocked with the full, fat 4.0-liter flat-six. Porsche’s bigger engine comes in varying degrees of grunt, in 394, 414, and 493-horsepower configurations.

Regardless of engine choice, each 718 Cayman comes standard with a welcome six-speed manual transmission. But a lightning-fast seven-speed dual-clutch auto and steering wheel-mounted paddle shifters are available. It may not be able to traverse a racetrack as quickly as its big brother 911, but the 718’s handling and stability are equally stunning.

How does the 718 EV compare?
Not much is known about the 2025 Porsche 718 EV’s performance figures. Yet, Car and Driver says it’ll use the same 800-volt Taycan architecture for a DC fast-charge rate of up to 270 kWh. Therefore, the 718 EV will at least be quick to replenish with electricity and have a 250-mile driving range.

How long will the Porsche 718 be sold with the 718 EV?

Porsche’s CEO didn’t clarify when the ICE 718 will be nixed for its EV replacement. With the company looking to sell 80% electric vehicles by the decade’s end, some ICE models will have to go. But some company offerings aren’t as controversial as others when discussing plug-in power.

The fact that the Porsche 718 and 718 will be sold together gives potential customers a unique opportunity to experience exactly how electrical power changes a car’s dynamics. Toyota is big on offering electric and ICE powertrains in the same exact car. However, those are mass-market models. Sports cars don’t provide the same opportunity, and Porsche is ahead of the pack in managing the transition to EVs. After all, at some point, the company will have to deal with potential fallout over an all-electric 911.

By worf
#206149
fpena944 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:03 am Ever since Porsche made the announcement that they are going to fully electrify the Cayman and other 718 related models, I've been puzzled as it seems this platform is becoming more popular on the track than the 911.

Seems like Porsche finally admitted this and plans to sell the two together at least in the short term. My hope is though that they'll realize there's probably a market for both.
Here's my take based upon my assimilation of what I've read:

There have been numerous "Official" pronouncements from PAG starting several years ago. Mostly recently there have been several PAG "short" statements that are in conflict. All of the stories you find on the Web are based upon these short 2 or 3 sentence declarations from PAG and provide multi-paragraph conclusions or pronouncements based upon interpretation of those sentences. It's easy to find the original PAG text and draw your own conclusions.

The EV platform upon which the EV 718 is to be based is shared with VAG. That platform will also unpin the EV Macan. This VAG platform has been significantly delayed by software issues (idiots didn't contact me years ago and let me bring in my crew to straighten their shit out... but that's another rant...)

EURO 8 regulations due (perhaps) to come into force in October 2024 will effectively kill, in the EU, most ICE engines with any performance whatsoever (as well as kill tires, brake pads, and any other car component that "emits". But, that too is another rant...)

This is what I believe to be true:

EV 718 production will not "takeaway" from ICE production because the two cars must be built in completely different factories.

The current Zuffenhausen facility (construction on which started in late 2015) for Taycans has a ~100k-unit per year capacity and cannot be expanded due to location unless PAG demolishes something else really big. Taycan '22 production was 34801, '21 38,474, so the factory is working "one shift." right now. The EV Macan is targeted at the volume market and will soak up that excess capacity. But, PAG will be very careful about its release because Macan customers are not Taycan customers and have very different expectations. EV 718 seems to be a "test" of an EV Porsche sports car. Unless or until the EV Macan doesn't suck PAG will won't produce it in numbers for all markets.

Zuffenhausen EV facility will not have a lot of excess capacity for EV 718 until Macan (and Cayenne) production forecasts enable PAG to build another EV facility somewhere else.

So, timing of rollout of 718EV in sufficient numbers to be anything other than a curiosity, is very cloudy. In my mind.

This also "in the news"

- Push back on Euro anti-ICE regulations (as far as EV is concerned, not tire or brake pad emissions, though.)

- PAG's research in to "Carbon-neutral" fuels to enable ICE engines.

This is what I think will happen (check back in Mid '24 to see if I'm right):

Porsche will build ICE 718s on the current platform (981/982) without any non-trivial changes until September 30th 2024. The current 718 ICE platform will not be refreshed with new tech outside of the center-stack PCM infotainment unit (and I doubt even that.) It will not get the touch-screen-driven cockpit UI from the 992. It will not get another new engine that isn't a minor-tweak of an existing 718 engine.

The extent to which various trims will be available is anyone's guess. PAG has already - it seems - informed dealers worldwide that Spyder and GT4 production is done forever. GT4RS production continues as does GTS 4.0 and all 4-cylinder trims. Spyder RS (with GT3-derived 4.0 from the GT4RS) is due this year as a '24 model (likely.) There are credible rumors of a "Cayman R" as the final 'halo' ICE 718 but no mules have been spotted.

Starting October '24 PAG will continue to build ICE 718s for RoW markets not killed by Euro 8. This will continue until unit demand wanes, regulations kill it completely, PAG's "e-fuel" happens, or 2030.

And even it it goes to 2030 it will not be Porsche's longest lived platform(*): That honor (for various values of "honor") goes to the 928.

(*) Platform means: the "essential" body in white. The 928's body in which was almost unchanged from '78 to '95. 718 stems from the 2013 981 platform. Whereas the 911 has had a new platform many, many times (911, 964, 993, 996/997, 991/992.)
By fpena944
#206415
worf wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:50 pm
fpena944 wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 11:03 am Ever since Porsche made the announcement that they are going to fully electrify the Cayman and other 718 related models, I've been puzzled as it seems this platform is becoming more popular on the track than the 911.

Seems like Porsche finally admitted this and plans to sell the two together at least in the short term. My hope is though that they'll realize there's probably a market for both.
Here's my take based upon my assimilation of what I've read:

There have been numerous "Official" pronouncements from PAG starting several years ago. Mostly recently there have been several PAG "short" statements that are in conflict. All of the stories you find on the Web are based upon these short 2 or 3 sentence declarations from PAG and provide multi-paragraph conclusions or pronouncements based upon interpretation of those sentences. It's easy to find the original PAG text and draw your own conclusions.

The EV platform upon which the EV 718 is to be based is shared with VAG. That platform will also unpin the EV Macan. This VAG platform has been significantly delayed by software issues (idiots didn't contact me years ago and let me bring in my crew to straighten their shit out... but that's another rant...)

EURO 8 regulations due (perhaps) to come into force in October 2024 will effectively kill, in the EU, most ICE engines with any performance whatsoever (as well as kill tires, brake pads, and any other car component that "emits". But, that too is another rant...)

This is what I believe to be true:

EV 718 production will not "takeaway" from ICE production because the two cars must be built in completely different factories.

The current Zuffenhausen facility (construction on which started in late 2015) for Taycans has a ~100k-unit per year capacity and cannot be expanded due to location unless PAG demolishes something else really big. Taycan '22 production was 34801, '21 38,474, so the factory is working "one shift." right now. The EV Macan is targeted at the volume market and will soak up that excess capacity. But, PAG will be very careful about its release because Macan customers are not Taycan customers and have very different expectations. EV 718 seems to be a "test" of an EV Porsche sports car. Unless or until the EV Macan doesn't suck PAG will won't produce it in numbers for all markets.

Zuffenhausen EV facility will not have a lot of excess capacity for EV 718 until Macan (and Cayenne) production forecasts enable PAG to build another EV facility somewhere else.

So, timing of rollout of 718EV in sufficient numbers to be anything other than a curiosity, is very cloudy. In my mind.

This also "in the news"

- Push back on Euro anti-ICE regulations (as far as EV is concerned, not tire or brake pad emissions, though.)

- PAG's research in to "Carbon-neutral" fuels to enable ICE engines.

This is what I think will happen (check back in Mid '24 to see if I'm right):

Porsche will build ICE 718s on the current platform (981/982) without any non-trivial changes until September 30th 2024. The current 718 ICE platform will not be refreshed with new tech outside of the center-stack PCM infotainment unit (and I doubt even that.) It will not get the touch-screen-driven cockpit UI from the 992. It will not get another new engine that isn't a minor-tweak of an existing 718 engine.

The extent to which various trims will be available is anyone's guess. PAG has already - it seems - informed dealers worldwide that Spyder and GT4 production is done forever. GT4RS production continues as does GTS 4.0 and all 4-cylinder trims. Spyder RS (with GT3-derived 4.0 from the GT4RS) is due this year as a '24 model (likely.) There are credible rumors of a "Cayman R" as the final 'halo' ICE 718 but no mules have been spotted.

Starting October '24 PAG will continue to build ICE 718s for RoW markets not killed by Euro 8. This will continue until unit demand wanes, regulations kill it completely, PAG's "e-fuel" happens, or 2030.

And even it it goes to 2030 it will not be Porsche's longest lived platform(*): That honor (for various values of "honor") goes to the 928.

(*) Platform means: the "essential" body in white. The 928's body in which was almost unchanged from '78 to '95. 718 stems from the 2013 981 platform. Whereas the 911 has had a new platform many, many times (911, 964, 993, 996/997, 991/992.)
Amazing insight, thank you so much!

It will be interesting to see if the EU proceeds with the regulation to essentially ban all ICE cars from being sold. If so it's going to cause a lot of hurt for the domestic manufacturers that have to essentially maintain two product lines.

But I think we'll likely see some delays and the can will get kicked down the road due to infrastructure and maybe even lack of materials to meet demand.

I guess we'll see but in the mean time, let's try to enjoy what we have and hope the future brings vehicles with as much personality as those we've been able to experience so far.
By worf
#206492
Turns out, based upon something I read yesterday, 718 EV will NOT share VAG platforms with the Macan.

So… maybe software delays will not impact rollout. Or maybe they will.

Nevertheless, my prediction of ICE 718s until at least October 2024 stands.

Full disclosure: my crystal ball is very biased; it wants a ‘25 PTS GTS Cayman 4.0.
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