Mid-engine cars
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By N_Jay
#135912
Thoughts on a 2012 Cayman with a salvage title.
80K miles
Look like about 5K miles since the repair.
Will get a Porsche PPI if I decide to go forward.
(anyone in the Atlanta area want to take a look for me?)
Seems to be 20% to 30% off of bluebook.
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Last edited by N_Jay on Thu Feb 24, 2022 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By N_Jay
#135913
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By fpena944
#135918
It certainly looks great and seems like the repairs were nicely done - at least based on the photos.

Is this a car you intend to keep for a long time? If not then the title is going to be problematic when it comes time to sell.

If priced right and PPI checks out, I wouldn't have a problem taking the plunge but I'm also one to keep cars forever so resale isn't as important for me.
By worf
#135921
Ah… so that’s before and after pictures…

If the work was done by a Porsche Certified shop or a high-end shop then modulo PPI… sure.

If done by your average body shop that lives on reimbursement from insurance companies then…

… only if I was going to ‘use it up’ in an appliance-like manner.

From 20+ years of seeing how body shops fix 928s… I have an ultra-low opinion of body shops in general. If the owner cannot see the repair without some disassembly then assume what’s “behind the curtain” is a clusterfuck.

Your PPI must include removing the front bumper cover so as to inspect harnesses, brackets, clips, clamps etc. along with the big expensive bits that are in front of the frunk tub.
By N_Jay
#135940
Well, I am fairly sure it was not a Porsche repair as the story is he bought it from the auction place already repaired.
That is good and bad.
It could have been done on the cheap, but they would have a good supply of used replacement parts so little need to force something to fit, or fix something 1/2 way.

I do tend to keep cars forever. Our current low mileage car is my 1973 914 at about 80K miles (if I recall).

Looking at the before pictured, It seems to have gone under something like a truck rear end. If it didn't stop hard, the twisting the unibody is unlikely.

What are the expensive tidbits under the bumper to look at?
Radiator, AC condenser, Fans?????

I figure someone here has done worse on the track, so they may have some insight.

With most everything mechanical at the back end, I am figuring there is little chance of serious engine or trans damage.

So, thinking if not wrecked it is worth $32k to $35k and repaired it is $10k to $12K less.

What would a fully running but ugly 2012 Cayman be worth as a starter to build a track car? I figure even if I have to take it that route in a few years I am still ahead of the game.

Thoughts?
By worf
#135945
N_Jay wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:45 pm It could have been done on the cheap, but they would have a good supply of used replacement parts so little need to force something to fit, or fix something 1/2 way.
You never know how good previous work is until you take it apart.

Based upon my experience, (I did mention that I've been working on 928s (other peoples 928s) for more than 20 year right?) the average repair - in this context - is pretty "lazy."

I have seen 928s were the repair bill listed parts "behind the curtain" that were charged to insurance that were not replaced (and still broken.)

N_Jay wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:45 pm the twisting the unibody is unlikely.
That is the one good thing I saw (for small values of "saw") in the picture: the hit looked square.

On the other hand I can send you pictures of work done to several 928s where on the outside they look very square after repair but underneath are they are trapezoidal.

N_Jay wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:45 pm What are the expensive tidbits under the bumper to look at?
Radiator, AC condenser, Fans?????
Heat exchangers, fan assemblies, the headlight assemblies, and the coolant and refrigerant lines.

These however are usually replaced when damaged. Because they won't work otherwise. Light assemblies are an exception here: they can still shine light but be broken.

What gets short shrift are brackets, braces, harnesses, etc. It's easy to charge for a new harness but make (poor) repairs instead. It's easy to just not worry about properly fastening all the new expensive bits to broken mount points.

Who's going to pull the bumper cover upon delivery to check? And, if they did, how would they know something's not right unless they were pretty expert in what's under the covers? And, you think the guys that fix that stuff in an autobody shop are pretty expert in what's under the cover on any particular car?

Last, once the car's out of the shop for more than 5 seconds, the shop can say that the damage must have occurred after delivery.


One very easy thing to do is to look very, very carefully at hood gaps and then at the hood latch tongue and receiver assemblies. I've seen latch assemblies offset to the left or right to "move" the hood to cover up a front end that's that's not straight, but looks straight with the hood closed.
N_Jay wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:45 pm With most everything mechanical at the back end, I am figuring there is little chance of serious engine or trans damage.
Seems likely.

I'd pull the bumper cover and look for obvious signs of poor repair: zip ties, holes that obviously should have fasteners, bent brackets, spliced harnesses, loose dangling things, busted plastic, etc. Make sure the headlight assembles don't move when wiggled. They are notorious for having their plastic mount points broken in accidents such that, while still "working" they are secured by one bolt and will fly out when on-track. And why not keep the $2000 the insurance company gives you for a new light when the owner will never notice?

It should take less than one hour to R&R the front cover so as to see what's going on in their. (That is - for a shop that's done it before.) First time? If you have directions? Two hours tops.

N_Jay wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 8:45 pm So, thinking if not wrecked it is worth $32k to $35k and repaired it is $10k to $12K less.

What would a fully running but ugly 2012 Cayman be worth as a starter to build a track car? I figure even if I have to take it that route in a few years I am still ahead of the game.
No idea. I have no idea what anything's worth just a good idea of what it costs to fix them and mostly only 928s.
By N_Jay
#135950
Yep, I have seen (and done) some questionable things to get a car back together.
I am sure there was no insurance payment as it was "sold" wrecked through an auction.
The buyer (Now seller) had to file for the reconstructed title.
Carfax shows 2 owners, so it was a one owner car when wrecked.
Many higher mileage cares are 3, 4 or 5 owners. I never trust those.

Hood latch and hood gaps are a good thing to check.
If the normal PPI is about an hour, I guess that pulling the front cover will double the cost.
I am figuring a normal PPI should be about $125 to $150
Anyone know a good Indy shop in Atlanta, as I know the dealer will be EXPENSIVE.

I know all about headlight tabs after rebuilding the front of an 2000 A6 a couple of times.

I am not hoping to build a show car, just a daily commuter.
By worf
#135961
Good luck.
By N_Jay
#135970
We will see.

The service writer from the MB dealer I used in IL is now at the Atlanta Porsche dealership, but knowing dealer's a PPI is going to be pricey.
I would rather find a good indy.

From what I have heard the 987.2 cars are pretty reliable.
If I am correct they are past the IMS issue, and most of the cylinder scoring issues.
Anyone know differently?

Thinking I might have to ask at the other site.
By worf
#135981
N_Jay wrote: Thu Feb 24, 2022 11:02 pm From what I have heard the 987.2 cars are pretty reliable.
If I am correct they are past the IMS issue, and most of the cylinder scoring issues.
Anyone know differently?
They are past IMS issues.

Bore scoring well... that's another issue and one in which I've taken a keen interest as I have 2 (soon 3) flat-6 motors and one flat-4 motor. I've read a bunch of threads on TOS about the issue. There are some very good posts by Charles Navarro from LN engineering in various threads.

Here's a long one: https://rennlist.com/forums/991/1138984 ... oring.html

My take on the issue is that the probability of bore scoring can be minimized by ensuring that the motor is always, always properly warmed up before "exercising it." That means low load and moderate RPM until oil temperature reaches 185°F.

Call back in 10 years and see if I'm right about that.
By Cuda911
#135997
I have a '74 914 with salvage title. However, it is one of the cleanest and well-documented 914's you will see. There was some relatively minor front end damage in 97. Back then these cars were worth nothing, so it was totalled. It was then repaired at one of the best shops in San Diego. I have all documentation of everything, original sales receipt, every oil change since new, etc. Still, many would not buy it due to the title blemish. Yet those same dopes will pay top dollar for a rust-bucket that was rebuilt ground-up from a clean VIN tag. My 74:
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By worf
#136018
N_Jay wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:41 am At what mileage does it show up?
I’m unwilling to opine on that. It wasn’t a question I needed answered when I was wading through that topic.

I would think however, that a careful borescope examination with each piston at BDC might provide useful info. But, that will add considerable expense to a PPI and finding someone to do it might not be easy.

Note to self: one more thing to do next time plugs come out.

N_Jay wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:41 am Wondering what else I need to consider?
No idea. I’ve disgorged about everything I know that I could apply to a salvaged 987.
By N_Jay
#136033
Cuda911 wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 3:23 am I have a '74 914 with salvage title. However, it is one of the cleanest and well-documented 914's you will see. There was some relatively minor front end damage in 97. Back then these cars were worth nothing, so it was totalled. It was then repaired at one of the best shops in San Diego. I have all documentation of everything, original sales receipt, every oil change since new, etc. Still, many would not buy it due to the title blemish. Yet those same dopes will pay top dollar for a rust-bucket that was rebuilt ground-up from a clean VIN tag. My 74:
Dude, I am jealous!
My 914 will never look that good. (But I do have a clear title).

I keep looking at the before pictures and just don't know enough about these cars to really know what could have been damaged.

The strike looks like it as at the height or the top of the headlamps, and my guess is the bumper cover came off pulling it out, or some other secondary damage. (best case).
In todays world, the fenders and hood have most certainly been replaced.

I was hoping we had a Cayman expert here who maybe has taken one apart or repaired a front end.
By N_Jay
#136035
worf wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 9:10 am
No idea. I’ve disgorged about everything I know that I could apply to a salvaged 987.
Thanks for the help.
By fpena944
#136160
N_Jay wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 2:41 am At what mileage does it show up?
Wondering what else I need to consider?
Don't quote me on this but my understanding was that it was something usually associated with lower mileage vehicles in cooler climates. I think with 80k miles that should be a good indication the engine is past it's factory defects.

But again, I only stayed at a Holiday Inn Express and don't have a title of expert in these matters. :biggrin:
By fpena944
#136199
N_Jay wrote: Fri Feb 25, 2022 7:32 pm I wonder if it is worth wandering over to TOS to see if there are any helpful 987 experts?
Shouldn't cost you anything and you might get some good feedback. And if you refer back to this thread I'm sure the link won't start on there long. :roflmao:
By N_Jay
#136224
Well much like the unexpected interview, I figure "What the hell".
Apparently PCNA no longer allows the dealer to do PPIs (Was told this both by the dealer and the Porsche NA service center in Atlanta)
I got a referral to a local indy shop that had good references, so it is scheduled to go there next week.
Assuming they don't find anything we negotiated a price that feels pretty good.
We agreed to renegotiate the price if any issues show up.
What a ride the last 4 months have been Garage/Job/Car.
OI am definitely not used to this kind of run.
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By N_Jay
#136642
The inspection is scheduled for next Friday.
Does anyone have any knowledge about a place called Autohaus Social in Atlanta?
Just realized that this is the first car I have bought for ME since my GL320 in January 2013.
Hoping nothing serious shows up with the inspection.
Expecting something, since it was not a high dollar repair.
Fingers crossed.
I did not ask on the other site, as popular Cayman are I think I might start some competitive shopping.
By fpena944
#136653
N_Jay wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:13 pm The inspection is scheduled for next Friday.
Does anyone have any knowledge about a place called Autohaus Social in Atlanta?
Just realized that this is the first car I have bought for ME since my GL320 in January 2013.
Hoping nothing serious shows up with the inspection.
Expecting something, since it was not a high dollar repair.
Fingers crossed.
I did not ask on the other site, as popular Cayman are I think I might start some competitive shopping.
If you don't want to head to another forum and are open to joining Facebook, there's a group of "Southeastern Porsche Enthusiasts" that might have insight. They can be found here:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/620727218433029

If you're not on FB I can ask on your behalf, just let me know!
By worf
#136671
plant-9.com might be worth checking for 987 lore.
By N_Jay
#137150
Are there Porsche VIN decoders, or VIN look up systems that can get more details about teh specific car?
Options and build information?

I know MB has those, but not sure if Porsche has anything similar?

Do they use Build/Option code stickers like VW?
If so, where are they placed?
By worf
#137152
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By jej3
#137283
N_Jay wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:13 pm Does anyone have any knowledge about a place called Autohaus Social in Atlanta?
Autohaus Social does a ton of performance work and maintenance on German cars notably BMWs, Audis, VWs and Porsche. They had just opened their shop when we did the Rendezvous 928 event in Atlanta. Clean place and really seem fairly excellent based on things I see through FB.
By N_Jay
#137292
jej3 wrote: Wed Mar 02, 2022 8:51 am
N_Jay wrote: Sun Feb 27, 2022 7:13 pm Does anyone have any knowledge about a place called Autohaus Social in Atlanta?
Autohaus Social does a ton of performance work and maintenance on German cars notably BMWs, Audis, VWs and Porsche. They had just opened their shop when we did the Rendezvous 928 event in Atlanta. Clean place and really seem fairly excellent based on things I see through FB.
Thanks for the confirm.
By N_Jay
#137775
So, the car looks good mechanically and from an external finish standpoint.
There doesn't seem to be any issues other than the front of the tub was straightened as you might expect a fix and and hide it body shop would do.
Everything lines up and there is no sign the damage went much beyond the replaced parts (Fenders, Hood, Lights, Bumper). It does not even look like the "crash bar" under the bumper was hit.
However the tub looks like it was bent up where the fenders attach and across the front where the hood latch attaches.
All the mounting points are pulled back to where they should be, but the underlying metal and edges are very wrinkly.
It was pulled and hammered. instead of cut and replaced.

SO, I can get a front tub clip for between $1500 and $2000, but the question is what would it cost to get a shop to weld it on properly.
I would pull and replace the bumper, fenders, and hood. With luck, it could be done without external painting.

Any ideas of the cost?
By fpena944
#138080
N_Jay wrote: Sat Mar 05, 2022 7:36 pm Assuming I don't find anything that the mechanic missed I'll be a Cayman owner next Friday afternoon.
Woo hoo!

I know the repairs weren't perfect but if the car is still able to be properly aligned then any harm in leaving the front clip as it is?
By N_Jay
#138083
Probably just future value.
Looks like there were only about 450 2012 Cayman built and about 200 imported.
As it ages its collector value will go up and the deduction for the branded title will decrease.
By fpena944
#138140
N_Jay wrote: Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:08 am Probably just future value.
Looks like there were only about 450 2012 Cayman built and about 200 imported.
As it ages its collector value will go up and the deduction for the branded title will decrease.
True - just look at how a rusty shell of a 356 sells for a decent amount!
By worf
#138163
Good luck with it.
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