Open Road

I'll be over there this afternoon to take a look at it. I'm guessing that the button heads on both the damper and the pulley are going to interfere with each other.

@milrad - If I can get a measurement of the bore diameter highlighted and distance from surface X to the top of the cap screw heads, I can evaluate quickly.

Yeah. That’s gonna rub a bit…

Are those M6 bolts holding the pulley together?

It's looking to me like the only way forward is to turn down the end of the hub and not use the 3 button heads screws to mount the ATI.

worf wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:30 am Yeah. That’s gonna rub a bit…

Are those M6 bolts holding the pulley together?

I think we are starting to see the same things.

worf, those bolts don't appear to be holding anything together. Not sure why they are there. The do sit in the recesses of the stock damper though.

It maybe be possible to mill out the pulley hub "pocket." It's about a 10mm difference in diameter to the new hub. If either the pully or hub is modified, the button head bolts on the super damper would still have to go.

My concern is taking off too much material from one or the other and compromising the strength of the part. Plus not using all the bolts on the super damper.

I'm thinking those cap screws were added as an anti-rotation feature to prevent the pulley from rotating relative to the crank under SC load - the screw heads contacting the 6 bosses/ribs cast into the OEM damper body if it started to rotate.

Removing the material from the hub as shown above will not impact in hub strength is any pertinent way, so you need not worry about that.

Going without the 3 button heads is frowned upon by ATI. How about ditching the 6 cap screws and having 3 cbores added to the SC pulley that the button heads would fit into, with the heads acting as that anti-rotation feature.

The bolt circle for the 3 button heads is 3.200"

That's pretty clever. I'll discuss it with Sean when he gets here.

Woo...was a little worried there but the 928MS Raptor SC pulley uses stock AC pulleys so I imagine it will be OK with the super duper damper.

Yes, that installation will be fine.

I've pinged Erik about the pulley that you have. If it's set up the way I think it is, clamping force should be enough to keep the AC pulley from moving under load and those small hex may not be needed. I'll know more as I look at it though, just thinking out loud.

Nevermind, it will move as those are holding the AC pulley in place, it will wobble everywhere w/o them. Next wondering if it can be removed totally and use a stock AC one.

SeanR wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 2:33 pmNevermind, it will move as those are holding the AC pulley in place, it will wobble everywhere w/o them. Next wondering if it can be removed totally and use a stock AC one.

Is there enough material to countersink drill them for flat head bolts?

Thanks Sean, am I OK to post here?

Geza-aka-Zombo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:04 pm I'm thinking those cap screws were added as an anti-rotation feature to prevent the pulley from rotating relative to the crank under SC load - the screw heads contacting the 6 bosses/ribs cast into the OEM damper body if it started to rotate.

Yup, they were added due to necessity the first prototype didn't have them.

FYI they could be installed with loctite so a bit of heat wouldn't be a bad idea if you want to remove them.

Just talked to Murphy, one idea is drill through and have a corresponding threaded hole on the new hub and install a set screw or two.

Or modify the hub looks like an easy enough fix too.

Hacker-Pschorr wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 3:52 pm Thanks Sean, am I OK to post here?

Geza-aka-Zombo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:04 pm I'm thinking those cap screws were added as an anti-rotation feature to prevent the pulley from rotating relative to the crank under SC load - the screw heads contacting the 6 bosses/ribs cast into the OEM damper body if it started to rotate.

Yup, they were added due to necessity the first prototype didn't have them.

FYI they could be installed with loctite so a bit of heat wouldn't be a bad idea if you want to remove them.

Just talked to Murphy, one idea is drill through and have a corresponding threaded hole on the new hub and install a set screw or two.

Or modify the hub looks like an easy enough fix too.

Of course you can post here dickhead.

We did a bunch of measurements today and if we take off the 4mm lip that has the threaded holes that can give us enough room to keep the ATI damper in place unmolested. In keeping hex headed bolts that are on the pulley to keep it from spinning, since they are drilled all the way through the thing if we leave 3 of them in place then they could potentially keep any slipping/spinning from happening like it was originally designed. They would just butt up against the existing button heads on the ATI damper. I don't see an issue with it.

When looking at the original set up, the only contact marks on the pully and the Porsche damper were on the raised ridges as the pulley was torqued down. There was no slippage showing where the hex bolts made any rotational movement causing it to hit the ribs on the factory tensioner. So this tells me two things. One: no slippage is occurring as torqueing forces kept the mating surfaces solid, or.................

Two: @Gretch drove like a bitch.

I think I understand what you are proposing, machining off that raised ring on the SCPulley and installing the cap screws on the now flush surface. I see that working perfectly. Nice job.

Geza-aka-Zombo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:39 pm I think I understand what you are proposing, machining off that raised ring on the SCPulley and installing the cap screws on the now flush surface. I see that working perfectly. Nice job.

That's basically what we are thinking. There is going to be about 1mm spacing between the button heads on the ATI damper and the squish point on the 4mm hex bolts. If there is any rotational movement on the SC pully, it is going to be stopped by the button heads. But with the clamping force from the crank bolt I don't see that happening. I also said we could amp up the torque from 218 to 230 on the crank bolt with zero issues.

SeanR wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:18 pm Two: @Gretch drove like a bitch.

LoL. So @milrad has the Gretchmobile? Cool.

worf wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:13 pm

SeanR wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:18 pm Two: @Gretch drove like a bitch.

LoL. So @milrad has the Gretchmobile? Cool.

It seems to be a very very small world doesn't it.

SeanR wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:44 pm

Geza-aka-Zombo wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 9:39 pm I think I understand what you are proposing, machining off that raised ring on the SCPulley and installing the cap screws on the now flush surface. I see that working perfectly. Nice job.

That's basically what we are thinking. There is going to be about 1mm spacing between the button heads on the ATI damper and the squish point on the 4mm hex bolts. If there is any rotational movement on the SC pully, it is going to be stopped by the button heads. But with the clamping force from the crank bolt I don't see that happening. I also said we could amp up the torque from 218 to 230 on the crank bolt with zero issues.

I'm sure you were planning to do this, but just in case, I suggest clocking the SC pulley (while still a little loose) CCW and holding it there (cap screws in contact with the button heads), while doing the final tightening.

worf wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 10:13 pm
LoL. So @milrad has the Gretchmobile? Cool.

Guilty. Wasn't an easy get either. I half expect to wake up some morning to an open garage door and the sound of his roaring laughter fading into the distance.

Update on my specific issue.

Well I had the raised ring on the SC pulley milled off flush with the surface that contacts the damper hub. I then carefully cleaned out the threads and reinstalled the 10-24 cap screws. As I was finishing this up I had this sinking feeling as I realized I'd taken this measurement before we started brainstorming ideas. The bolt circle of the cap screws is exactly the same diameter as the hub.

Doh!

So now the pulley fits on nicely with the expected clearance of the damper button heads, but only without the cap screws. I'm a little leery of drilling and tapping the pulley for a stud or set screw without throwing off the balance.

I did some measuring and noted that the area of the clamping surface between the new hub and SC pulley is ~65% larger than the stock damper hub. I'm thinking that with a bit more clamping force as Sean suggests and the added friction from the increased surface area any slippage would be minimized.

I only plan to run this setup in a mild tune, probably 6-7 psi of boost.

Am I thinking about this wrong?

If you machine (or file down) the hub .20 min deep as shown, the 10-24 cap screw heads will fit and provide your anti-rotation feature. Just use 3 of the 6 screws.

Sorry I am late to the party on this one. That looks like the original FAST pulley, and I have the drawings for it.

Those capscrews in the back of the crank pulley were designed to catch the webbing on the original cast damper hub as an anti-rotation feature. I did the same thing when I redesigned my own SC pulley.

When Geza announced his hub, I took a look and determined it was not compatible with the way I machined my pulleys either. If there is another batch of SC kits, I may change the design to make it more compatible with aftermarket damper options.

PorKen wrote: ↑Fri Jul 09, 2021 1:24 pm Woo...was a little worried there but the 928MS Raptor SC pulley uses stock AC pulleys so I imagine it will be OK with the super duper damper.

89_black_sc_pulley.jpg

Ken,

Just curious...since this Raptor SC pulley set up uses the stock AC pulley is it somehow keyed to the shaft or otherwise locked to the stock damper (which of course is keyed)?

Thanks.

it's not keyed. Just held in place by the crank bolt. Murph and Hans think about all the possibilities and that is why they are engineered as heavy as they are. Even if it's quite possible it doesn't need that much thought put in to it. Not a bad thing at all, just sayin.

milrad wrote: ↑Fri Jul 23, 2021 4:34 pmJust curious...since this Raptor SC pulley set up uses the stock AC pulley is it somehow keyed to the shaft or otherwise locked to the stock damper (which of course is keyed)?

There is just a plain surface on the back of the monster pulley.

The crank bolt was drenched in Loctite or similar. Will have to review the 928MS installation manual to see if this is the recommendation.

Hans, thanks for chiming in with some background. I've found the thread on TOS discussing your pulley.

Geza, your last drawing really looks like the best solution from this point.

You probably only need one screw to do the job, and modify only one hole.

My alternator failed last week so while I was replacing that I also finally installed your hub. It slipped on perfectly. I will take another

Couple of hours in the garage toaster oven. Boom. Done. Easy-peasy.

Can't wait to start it up!

I reckon the Racing belt is ideal for use with the Super Damper. The Racing belt has negligible stretch so camshaft timing should be better. The downside could be that no stretching with the stock damper might mean more crank harmonics transferred to the cams vs. the regular belt whose stretch may help soak up crank harmonics.


Engine above is running but not yet driving. Rev'ing up into high rpms is very smooth.


FYI: Ebay link above where I bought my SD has been reloaded with another two dampers

Only 1 Kit left - After it is sold, I do not intend on selling more myself, though I have had discussions with Roger, who may offer them. Thanks to all my customers!

I think it’s time for everyone to tune in on the other channel, if you have not yet.

I’ve never seen the mods wash their hands of Greg before, this is new Erik :)
Well done Geza, and our departed Shifted.

So Mr Brown thought that the ATI adapter was to expensive, so he made his own adapter without copying it. (wonder how different an adapter can really be?)
Now he is attacking Geza for doing the same thing he did

Yeah I threw a little match on that coming fire early on…

Why Greg insists on dousing himself in gasoline and self-immolating is beyond me. He is hard to get a hold of, and you best not be in a hurry to get parts. But when you do get him on the phone, he thinks nothing of spending an hour with you going through every nuance of what your issue is. Rather helpful if you are not an expert in these cars. And his parts seem to be of high quality, with the exception of some oil filler baffles that, ahem, allegedly, had some welding issues.

But after how he treated Roger (and continues to take pot shots at in the referenced thread), I’m done.

milrad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:34 pm … with the exception of some oil filler baffles that, ahem, allegedly, had some welding issues.

I think that story has grown with the telling. AFAIK, the originator is on OR, maybe they’ll chime it.

I guess i’ll mix myself something and checkout what’s on on the other channel.

Watched the other channel for a bit.

I need another drink now.

worf wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:04 pm

milrad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:34 pm … with the exception of some oil filler baffles that, ahem, allegedly, had some welding issues.

I think that story has grown with the telling. AFAIK, the originator is on OR, maybe they’ll chime it.

I was trying to be charitable. I think I know the source and I have no doubt whatsoever as to the veracity of the story.

I had one on order when I learned of it, and it came with all sorts of QC check Sharpie writing on it. Doubt the earlier ones did.

milrad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:53 pm I was trying to be charitable. I think I know the source and I have no doubt whatsoever as to the veracity of the story.

LoL. And I was trying to be oblique.

worf wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:04 pm

milrad wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:34 pm … with the exception of some oil filler baffles that, ahem, allegedly, had some welding issues.

I think that story has grown with the telling. AFAIK, the originator is on OR, maybe they’ll chime it.

I guess i’ll mix myself something and checkout what’s on on the other channel.

Not really. I had three of them fail in a year, one of them bouncing around on a crank. Talked to Jake, who did the welding on them, and he said he'd talk to Greg about the issues. Jakes a friend and nothing happened as far as Greg talking to me about them. Decided to go with Han's baffles after that and so did Roger. It was a point of contention and when I mentioned it to Greg he changed the subject and blamed installation error. Greg and I get along just swell but some things we just don't talk about.

SeanR wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:29 pm Not really. I had three of them fail in a year, one of them bouncing around on a crank. Talked to Jake, who did the welding on them, and he said he'd talk to Greg about the issues. Jakes a friend and nothing happened as far as Greg talking to me about them. Decided to go with Han's baffles after that and so did Roger. It was a point of contention and when I mentioned it to Greg he changed the subject and blamed installation error. Greg and I get along just swell but some things we just don't talk about.

Was this after we talked about it at PCNA in Atlanta? My recollection of that conversation included fewer examples of failure. Or maybe it was the conversation with Hans. Lotta beer was processed that weekend.

Anyway, no matter. Spilled milk under the bridge Greg set on fire.

Are we on about Oil neck baffles. My Aluminium welding is Great Greg Brown aknowledge it and say so in Neat OIL NECK Baffle on Rennlist and Google Lol.

worf wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:49 pm
Anyway, no matter. Spilled milk under the bridge Greg set on fire.

I wish Greg would stop. He has been such a great resource over so many years, but the past year or so has been off the rails on these attacks. His attacks on Roger's integrity over and over are not good (thinly veiled as a guy from Texas). They kill his credability - everyone who has dealt with Roger knows that he is one of the most honest guys in the business, with unquestionable integrity. As I've gotten to know Geza a bit at things like Carlisle and Frenzy, there is no way his integrity is questionable either. I don't know if Greg reads over here or not, but if he does, he should be secure in his station in the 928 (and broader) community, and as such, there is no need to go on about the things he is hot about.

potdog wrote: ↑Thu Oct 14, 2021 5:52 am Are we on about Oil neck baffles. My Aluminium welding is Great Greg Brown aknowledge it and say so in Neat OIL NECK Baffle on Rennlist and Google Lol.

As I recall, you are not without sin in this multi-year debacle.

MattiasH wrote: ↑Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:13 pm So Mr Brown thought that the ATI adapter was to expensive, so he made his own adapter without copying it.

Now he is attacking Geza for doing the same thing he did

Exactly! Greg is a tool...or an introverted narcissist, take your pick


I don't even bother to get into conversations with/against him anymore

Picture for Åke (Strosek Ultra)

I have not heard anything on these dampers once installed performance wise. What is the consensus?

I don't have many miles on mine yet, but the engine is very smooth. And the motor dynoed at 521hp at the wheels, so I ain't exactly babying it.

I'd definitely do it again at this point.

So one kit left. Did you send any international. Do you know rough price to Australia? Post code 5081. I cant help to think I should jump on this while they are available. Unless you definitely think Roger will do them.

My apologies - I sold the last kit a few months ago. Last week, a previous buyer asked if I had any more; I made a kit out of the lone piece I had sitting on my desk (demo piece) and shipped it out.

I'd be fine having more made, but no longer want to be involved in the individual distribution and inventory. I thought it would be great if a 928 parts supplier offered them, as they could move them a lot quicker being in the business and having the advertising and infrastructure. I made my proposal, but it seems to have died on the vine.

Roger has so many irons in the fire he needs to be reminded on some stuff again. Hit him up and see if he is still interested.